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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Site Maintenance
From:       Andreas Pour <pour () kde ! org>
Date:       2001-12-14 22:35:03
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John Rizzo wrote:
> 
> On Friday 14 December 2001 15:46, Dirk Mueller wrote:
> > On Fre, 14 Dez 2001, John Rizzo wrote:
> > > Ok so one step at a time right.  I believe that I can accomplish much of
> > > this using zope as the content management system.  I would like to take
> > > the current incarnation of the site and duplicate it using zope.  I would
> > > use all the usefull utilities such as templates, caching, etc that are
> > > available through zope.  Much of the dynamic sections of the site that
> > > use php can still be leveraged since integrating php with zope is
> > > trivial.  Once this proof of concept is available and consistant with the
> > > existing site I can make it available to other people that are interested
> > > in helping with the site and see what they think.  Any appropriate
> > > changes could be made.  Then when its ready would could implement it as
> > > kde.org.
> >
> > How do you want to implement revision control by using Zope ?
> >
> 
> There is a standard module that allows you to create a version of the site.
> Any changes made in this version are not visible to anyone working outside
> the version until the version is committed.

Hiya,

This is quite easy using PHP as well.  You just create an "experimental"
or whatever you want to call it module and have that served up as
www-exp.kde.org (or similar) and when it's where you want it to be you
copy it over to the regular module.  That way you retain the CVS
revision control, too.
 
> > I do understand that Zope is easier to use for Webdesigners and
> > content-providers than the traditional html editor+php method. However
> > security wise this opens a can of worms. :(
> 
> Like most things if the system, in this case zope, is implemented correctly
> most security considerations can be handled correctly.  Obviously nothing is
> ever 100% secure but zope can be configured to be as secure as the current
> methods.

I personally have experience with both PHP and Zope, and I *much* prefer
PHP.  The biggest problem is the lack of people who can maintain Zope
sites -- PHP is much more widespread (I think PHP is much more popular
than Python, never mind Zope).  PHP is also much easier for people to
customize in a distributed manner; from my experience Zope is quite
difficult to get working across many machines; the database is not as
easily duplicated as is, say, a CVS branch.  And finally there are a lot
of mirrors of KDE websites that would have to upgrade all their
software; such a major change should occur only b/c of a compelling
reason.
 
> >
> > The advantage of using the traditional method is that it doesn't matter
> > much which way you used to create the site - with Zope the only effective
> > method known to me is to use the Zope management interface itself.
> >
> > So there is no way to talk you into going the traditional way with
> > contributing via CVS ? :)
> 
> Its not that I am opposed to cvs but rather that I would like to start making
> it easier for people to contribute.  Contrary to the abilities of most of the
> kde community most people do not want to have to learn things like cvs to
> write a document.  People who are good at documentation are not necessarily
> good at the same tools developers use.  I hope by using a web interface to
> ease this burden and therefor get more/better documentation available to the
> users and developers.

I'm not sure, why is it hard to make a web interface to the CVS
modules?  Just a web interface where you can edit each file in CVS and
(subject of course to security checks) commit changes?  This seems
rather trivial to me, but maybe I am missing something.
 
> Please keep something in mind.  Microsoft with all of their bad attributes is
> good at what they do.  If they think that it will increase profit and market
> share they will do it.  One of the things they do is provide incredible
> documentation to their developers and users.  This makes more poeple want to
> use and develop with Microsoft related tools.  We need to do the same.  True
> most of you guys are good coders and you know the ins and outs of kde very
> well but for people like me who may have the desire and talent it can be
> dauting at time to try and figure things out because it just isn't documented
> well or at all.
> 
> Please try to not respond with "the source is your documentation" kind of
> comments.  This only shows ignorance, immaturity, and alienates potential
> developers and users.  We need to make people want to use and develop for kde
> and we can do that by offering them a community that nourishes their desires
> and talents. :-)

All good points, but I'm not sure how this relates to Zope :-).

> > Dirk
> >
> > >> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to
> > >> unsubscribe <<
> 
> So unless anyone else can offer something better I am going to start working
> on things this weekend.

I fear that moving to Zope would more likely go against what you are
trying to accomplish.  For example, not that I have contributed to
WWW-cvs a lot, I know my contributions would become 0, b/c I don't care
to learn Python or Zope.  The equivalent to Zope in PHP would be Midgard
(http://www.midgard-project.org/), I think, have you looked at that?

Ciao,

Dre
 
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