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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    FW: Re: Select All, Ctrl-A, lineedits.
From:       Bjoern Kahl <Bjoern.Kahl () kiel ! netsurf ! de>
Date:       2000-09-13 22:34:27
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 Hallo !

 This is two days old, but still think it is important.
 There is a risk to confuse people.

 [ reformated by me (Bjoern.Kahl) because of line-length ]

 
-----FW: <200009111259.e8BCxUh13496@edder.stud.ntnu.no>-----

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:59:30 +0200 (MET DST)
Sender: reneky@stud.ntnu.no
From: reneky@stud.ntnu.no
To: Guillaume Laurent <glaurent@telegraph-road.org>
Subject: Re: Select All, Ctrl-A, lineedits.
Cc: Bjoern Kahl <Bjoern.Kahl@kiel.netsurf.de>

I'm not in the kde-core-devel mailing list, but since I feel
strongly about this I'm sending it to you. As I've introduced
a few people to linux and more recently kde I constantly face
the problem. This e-mail is based on this:

== I want more people to use unix ==

My opinion: making windows key bindings default in kde creates
inconsistency among the unix tools, which is a far bigger problems
then helping the windows converts into a couple new key bindings.
A _short_ list of useful keybindings with windows <-> kde pairs
is much better in the long run.


>>  Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E for Start/end of line are well known
>Well known ?? In the Unix hackers world, probably. Everywhere else, no.

Thats the problem! I think the proposed solution of emulating
windows is sub optimal. My solution is a SMALL cheat sheet of the
less than 10 key bindings windows converts need to learn, and then
stick with the emacs keys which are used in netscape, bash, ...

Why?
 - only windows users would benefit from Ctrl-a being select all,
   and that is a bit short sighted. 
 - by giving windows users a taste of the standard unix keys, one
   would ease their adoption of other unix software, such as xemacs. 
 - making people believe that unix is just windows with another
   tookit is just plain wrong; they need skills that can be used
   outside of kde. It's frustrating to have two competing sets of
   key bindings in the same enviroment. 

The cheat sheet could be made available in many ways: top of the
help menu, opened the first time someone logged in, on a "tips to
windows users" page easily found from the K menu, etc.

Education is the only way to lasting happiness.

>>  Remember, this is KDE, "a friendly face for Unix", not WINE.
>>  Things that worked in plain unix (even without X11) should
>>  work in KDE too, just a bit more userfriendly.
>In principle, I agree with you. Actually I bitch at having *any*
>Emacs keybinding rewired to anything else (like Ctrl-N to
>"New Window", Ctrl-P to Print and Ctrl-F to Find).

I couldn't agree more. BUT: the solution is not to give windows
power users a couple familiar key bindings in kde - because they
can't use the elsewhere. 

>But the audience of KDE has little to do with people who know these 
>keybindings. Ctrl-A for Select All at least makes a bit of sense,
>and is known on Mac (well, at least it's fairly close to the standard
>Mac keybinding) and Windows.

NO! The least computer literate users can use a Edit->Select All
mouse menu. Everyone able to remember Ctrl-A for select all would
benefit from learning key bindings that can be used consistenly
(fairly) througout the unix tools.

>IMHO there should simply be an "Emacs key scheme" pre-defined along
>with the KDE default one, so hackers can easily switch to it from
>the Control Center. 
>But to inflict 'Ctrl-A' as 'home' on Joe User won't work.

NO: the emacs key scheme needs to be default. Changing to windows-style 
keybindings is ok for a "test run" of kde/unix. But sticking only
creates problems in the long run. A 'vi' key scheme could be
optional, so that hackers can easily switch to it from the control
center.


Regards,

-- Rene Kyllingstad

--------------End of forwarded message-------------------------

 I think, he has made an important point about consistency. We
 can't change the whole unix-world wrt keybindings. If we use
 other keybindings than used in the rest of a unix system it
 will be confusing.

-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|      Björn Kahl ++ Im Kuckucksschlag 14 ++ 67663 Kaiserslautern       |
|   Tel.: (ISDN) 0631 3618532 ++ E-Mail: Bjoern.Kahl@kiel.netsurf.de    |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
 Weitergabe und/oder gewerbliche Nutzung meiner Adresse/TeleNr untersagt.

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