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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: PROPOSAL: "Mac" menubar as default
From:       mosfet <mosfet () mandrakesoft ! com>
Date:       2000-04-27 20:55:58
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Andreas Pour wrote:
> 
> mosfet wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> >
> > <IMHO - My Opionion Only!>
> > The only people who say the mac-menubar is counter-intuitive is those
> > trained on Windows and unwilling to learn new mechanisms.
> 
> Well, I learned on an Apple IIE (or IIS, can't remember) and a Commodore
> 64; then I switched to Mac and X.  I have used Windows only since 1993,
> when required to for work; and in my offwork time have used mainly X.
> 
> Why do you seem to ignore that the standard for *X* is menus at the top
> of the window?  And why do you seem to ignore that using a pop-up menu
> is even faster than Mac's menubar?
> 

<IMHO again>
I don't care about what the standard is for X. The UI "standard" for X
is either TWM or MWM with focus follows mouse ;-) Of the UI standards
(almost all of which as defacto ones) that do exist for X11, almost all
of them suck. Hence projects like KDE, Gnome, WindowMaker and GnuStep,
etc... :)

As far as the popupmenu idea, I have nothing against that either. We do
need a primary menubar always visisble, tho.

> > Not only is
> > the Mac mechanism viewed as superior by it's users, the Mac interface
> > (esp the menubar) is widely regarded as superior by both the industry
> > and UI design community. Even Windows magazines pratically owned by MS
> > tip the hat to the Mac UI, and it is highly regarded as a better system
> > for non-professionals.
> 
> I think there is one thing UI designers tell you, which is more
> important than this, which you seem to ignore:  conform to standards!
> Nothing confuses users more than to have apps behave completely
> differently.  And the standard in X is menus are at the top of the
> window. Every single X program I have used in over 12 years has been
> this way -- with the exception of the 3 or so days I toyed with Mac mode
> in KDE.  And most programs KDE desktop users will use will be this way
> too (in fact Gimp throws in a different mode altogether, which makes its
> design less than desirable -- the popup menus are great, but the menubar
> is very strangely placed and in total violation of Fitts law!).
> 
> One other standard from X is using pop-up menus.  The pop-up menubar
> approach conforms to this standard *and* is faster than the Mac
> approach.
> 
> (Of course this is all IMVHO).
>

As far as the popup menu statement see the above. As far as following
X11 standards for UI principles by far the "standard" for user
interfaces for Linux is TWM and Xaw. That's the only standard out there
;-) So lets a) make a Athena widget style engine and make that the
default, and b) make a twm window manager style and mac that the default
;-)

I'm for making the best UI, not one like previous X toolkits.

> Ciao,
> 
> Andreas

-- 
Daniel M. Duley - Unix developer & sys admin.
http://www.mosfet.org - The place for KDE development news.
mosfet@mandrakesoft.com
mosfet@kde.org

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