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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Re: KDM plans and lightDM
From:       Martin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=E4=DFlin?= <mgraesslin () kde ! org>
Date:       2011-06-14 20:19:40
Message-ID: 2072615.FtQPKuG2Kf () martin-desktop
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On Tuesday 14 June 2011 20:26:45 Harald Sitter wrote:
<snip>
> Agreed. 
> 
> Yet despite having complete control we did not manage to come up with a \
> truly  good workspace experience that starts at the DM (power management, \
> good looks,  I for one have yet to see a sane UI-wise integration of \
> stuff like fingerprint  auth, integration with the workspace like say MS \
> Windows displaying unread  mails etc.).
have these issues been raised in the past? How much on the UI layer is \
possible after the  Plasma integration? Has anyone tried to work on these \
points?

Personally I have a completely flicker free boot experience from after GRUB \
to desktop is  ready to use on my openSUSE systems, so some of the needs \
are not present for all and  maybe just unknown. And considering how often \
especially Canonical changed the splash  implementation over the last \
years, I'm not surprised we don't run behind the latest idea ;-) Oh  and I \
consider Plymouth as legacy as I'm quite sure somone will have the idea to \
replace it  with a Wayland Compositor (which would make much more sense).
> So, yes, giving away control is certainly a dangerous thing, and needs to \
> be  well throught through and evaluated (if it should happen at all that \
> is). Not  just in terms of control but also in terms of feature parity. \
> It certainly  would hurt the image of the KDE workspace to switch from a \
> capable, proven,  well tested and mature DM to one that does not even \
> measure in terms of  features. Let alone reliability.
My motto for Wayland is: DON'T BREAK THE DESKTOP! We should have that on \
all such  things ;-)
> With that in mind it certainly would be a good idea if everyone who threw \
> up  rants and whatnot to actually take a look at the status quo and see \
> if lightdm  is a viable alternative for antyhing, and if not how to make \
> KDM provide the  experience that we need to keep up with our competition.
> 
> Perhaps we should actually first find out what we need?
I think that is the most important one. Look at what is needed. Personally \
I guess that most of  it will be fixed with the Plasma integration work. \
Others will have to be evaluated for their  actual need. I also think that \
it might have been better to do that before suggesting a new DM  ;-)
> 
> Regarding the control issue with regards to workspace integration \
> though...  Maybe I misunderstood the architecture of LightDM, but to me \
> it seems that  all workspace affecting parts would be in the greeter \
> rather than the base of  the DM (I figure that is what we have right now \
> in KDM too). What would be  "outsourced", if you will, is the actual \
> logic of the DM, which for the better  part has little to do with the \
> workspace experience. We would still be in  control of all the UI parts, \
> and the DM logic part is certainly not where most  of the valuable UI \
> plunder should go (that also includes fancyness enabling  technologies \
> such as Plasma). Sure, regarding the actual display management we  would \
> be at the mercy of LightDM and its developers, but from a workspace  \
> point of view I reckon there is not all that much to be done in the DM \
> logic. 
Well we don't know and I gave an example with Activity integration in my \
last mail. And I could  think of more, like logging-in through a Plasma \
Active device or KWallet unlocking. I think there  is more than "just UI" \
which makes up the workspace.
> 
> > > At any
> > > rate it probably does not make sense to take such things into account
> > > for any technical discussion as long as the system in use is easily
> > > accessible. Otherwise all of free software would be using Git, not
> > > because it is superior, but simply because everyone else does.
> > 
> > Actually I think from a workspace point of view it is a technical issue \
> > if one of our applications is hosted in a version control system that \
> > is not git. Especially if it is a bizarre one that is only used by one
> > distribution. It means that not each workspace developer is able to \
> > easily check out the sources and apply patches. So yes, sounds very \
> > much like an issue to me.
> 
> I am not the biggest fan of bazaar either, but I think saying it is only \
> used  by one distribution is a bit unfair. Also important projects such \
> as MySQL,  Inkscape, Zeitgeist and various GNU projects such as Emacs and \
> Grub use it. I  would be very surprised if bazaar packages were not \
> available in every serious  distribution. Also unlike git it is not a \
> PITA to use on Windows :P 
> Anyhow, I do not think this is a topic worth discussing just now. 
> Seeing as we did not even identify LightDM as anything we need or want to \
> use  in place of own technology. To me the selection of VCS or \
> development  infrastructure at large is at best a political issue.
Just as a reason why it might be more than a political issue for both KDE \
and GNOME: git  would allow to co-host it on our infrastructure for things \
like every KDE-dev is allowed to  commit and of course scripty. Same holds \
for GNOME with some other points (no scripty ;-)

Cheers
Martin


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