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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Changing my mind: reverting my menubar,
From:       David Jarvie <djarvie () kde ! org>
Date:       2010-11-07 13:16:30
Message-ID: 201011071316.42399.djarvie () kde ! org
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On Sunday 07 November 2010 09:31:44 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Saturday 06 November 2010, Ingomar Wesp wrote:
> > Aurélien Gâteau wrote:
> > > I have been quite busy trying to convince everyone actions to
> > > toggle UI items such as menubar, toolbars, sidebars or statusbar
> > > should be labeled "Show/hide Foo" depending on the visibility of
> > > Foo rather than implemented as a checkable "[ ] Show Foo" item.
> > 
> > Having followed the discussion and how you fought to get this change
> > in, I'm a bit saddened that it turned out to not work so well in
> > practice.
> > 
> > Maybe we can tackle the underlying issue in another way. If I
> > understood the problem correctly, it basically boils down to
> > 
> > [X] Show Foo
> > 
> > textually implying the opposite of the action that the user is going
> > to trigger if (s)he clicks it. If we keep the checkboxes, maybe we
> > are able to change the text, so that it is obvious that it describes
> > the current state rather than an action by changing the verb into an
> > adjective:
> > 
> > [X] Foo shown
> > [X] Foo visible
> > [X] Foo enabled
> > 
> > Just an idea...
> 
> IMHO that does not really fix the problem. I think the real problem is 
> that we think that an additional qualifier like "Show" or "shown" is 
> necessary. As if our users would not understand what the state of the 
> checkbox preceding the menu entry signifies.
> 
> I just had a look at Firefox (maybe others can check applications from 
> other "vendors" like Apple, Microsoft, etc.)
> 
> Firefox has the options to show/hide certain UI components in the View 
> menu (while we have them in the Settings menu). In this menu Firefox 
> simply lists the UI components names without any verbs, adjectives, 
> etc., i.e.
> 
> View
> Toolbars
> [x] Navigation Toolbar
> [x] Bookmarks Toolbar
> [x] Status Bar
> Sidebar
> [ ] Bookmarks
> [ ] History
> 
> Does it really matter that Firefox has those options in the View menu 
> while we have them in the Settings menu? I don't think so.
> 
> So, why don't we simply get rid of "Show" (and the "Shown" in Settings-
> > Toolbars Shown). IMHO those qualifiers are totally superfluous in 
> combination with checkboxes. Our convention to add the "Show" does stem 
> from a time where we could (and did) hide the checkboxes of checkable 
> menu entries. Apparently, with Qt 4 the checkboxes of checkable menu 
> entries cannot be hidden. Since we are already at Qt 4.7 it seems very 
> unlikely that QtDF will ever change this. So why insist on a convention 
> that does not make any sense anymore?

I agree about removing "Show" etc. But if this is done, the menu items should be \
moved to the View menu. In the Firefox example you give, the menu name (View) puts \
the meaning of the menu items in context and acts as the verb, giving the necessary \
hint to the user that the checkboxes determine the view state of the respective \
items. Removing the verb and leaving them in the Settings menu would IMO make their \
meaning a bit unclear.

-- 
David Jarvie.
KDE developer.
KAlarm author -- http://www.astrojar.org.uk/kalarm


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