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List: kde-core-devel
Subject: Re: Which styles to keep?
From: Guillaume Laurent <glaurent () telegraph-road ! org>
Date: 2007-08-16 14:14:59
Message-ID: BFF34D4C-D2D9-407D-A2DD-9AD284CFB7B8 () telegraph-road ! org
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On Aug 16, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
> On Thursday 16 August 2007, Guillaume Laurent wrote:
>> Well, too bad for him, but I think we can do without people who can't
>> think out of their own geek-pink bubble.
>
> If we're talking about being able to do without people, maybe we
> can do
> without people who think they can do without a class of people they
> feel free
> to dismiss with a pejorative epithet?
I was thinking of people who insist on their own pet visual style
even though it looks obsolete.
>
> Because we've got plenty of hands on board to actually finish the
> thing per
> spec and on time, of course. We can easily afford to junk contributors
> because they don't agree with you.
Seriously, if someone jumps ship just because KDE takes a business/
market-oriented direction (which pretty much means that it starts
tackling needs of non-geek users), is that "junking" him ? In my mind
it's more like he's just being immature.
> And sure, an attractive default style is important. Keramik lost us an
> enormous amount of potential users right at the time when lots of
> people were
> moving to Linux. When Keramik was default, none of my co-workers
> who switched
> became KDE users. They all picked Gnome, on looks.
That's exactly what I mean. I'd bet looks also played a large part in
Ubuntu's initial choice of Gnome over KDE (that and the number of
options in the control panel).
>
> Whether Oxygen will do any better is something I really doubt. It's
> too much
> look-at-the-cool-widgets-not-your-work with at the same time an
> acute lack of
> any contrast so it takes real effort to see the state of the
> widgets properly.
I can't say anything about Oxygen. At least the icons look nice
(rather OSX-ish).
>
> But what do I know. I code nowadays, so I haven't got any aesthetic
> sense,
> ipso facto. Oh wait, that's true for my ex-co-workers, too. They
> were coders
> and project leads. Their opinion doesn't count. We wouldn't have
> wanted them
> as users anyway.
You may have aesthetic sense (although from a statistical point of
view, given the sheer number of enlightenment-gothic-matrix-jessica-
alba-theme screenshots over those which are, well, not eye-piercing,
assuming a coder has aesthetic sense isn't a safe bet), you won't
have any sense of usability though, because your way of using a
machine is just so different from a normal user, and your
understanding of it makes it impossible for you to put yourself in
his shoes. There's a reason why (good) usability is done by different
people than programmers, because not only is it a completely
different set of skills, it's also something programmer minds are
generally too warped to do properly.
--
Guillaume
http://telegraph-road.org
[Attachment #3 (unknown)]
<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: \
after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 16, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Boudewijn Rempt \
wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV \
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On \
Thursday 16 August 2007, Guillaume Laurent wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV \
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \
">Well, too bad for him, but I think we can do without people who can't </DIV><DIV \
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \
">think out of their own geek-pink bubble.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: \
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; \
"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; \
margin-left: 0px; ">If we're talking about being able to do without people, maybe we \
can do<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">without people who think \
they can do without a class of people they feel free<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to dismiss with a \
pejorative epithet?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR \
class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I was thinking of people who insist on \
their own pet visual style even though it looks obsolete.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE \
type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; \
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Because we've got plenty \
of hands on board to actually finish the thing per<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">spec and on time, of \
course. We can easily afford to junk contributors<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> \
</SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; \
margin-left: 0px; ">because they don't agree with you.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR \
class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Seriously, if someone jumps ship just \
because KDE takes a business/market-oriented direction (which pretty much means that \
it starts tackling needs of non-geek users), is that "junking" him ? In my mind it's \
more like he's just being immature. </DIV><BLOCKQUOTE \
type="cite"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And sure, an attractive \
default style is important. Keramik lost us an<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> \
</SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; \
margin-left: 0px; ">enormous amount of potential users right at the time when lots of \
people were<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: \
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">moving to Linux. When \
Keramik was default, none of my co-workers who switched<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">became KDE users. They all \
picked Gnome, on looks.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> \
</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>That's \
exactly what I mean. I'd bet looks also played a large part in Ubuntu's initial \
choice of Gnome over KDE (that and the number of options in the control \
panel).</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: \
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV \
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \
">Whether Oxygen will do any better is something I really doubt. It's too much<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \
">look-at-the-cool-widgets-not-your-work with at the same time an acute lack of<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">any contrast so it takes \
real effort to see the state of the widgets properly.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR \
class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I can't say anything about Oxygen. At \
least the icons look nice (rather OSX-ish). </DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV \
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \
min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; \
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">But what do I know. I code nowadays, so I \
haven't got any aesthetic sense,<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> \
</SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; \
margin-left: 0px; ">ipso facto. Oh wait, that's true for my ex-co-workers, too. They \
were coders<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: \
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and project leads. \
Their opinion doesn't count. We wouldn't have wanted them<SPAN \
class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; \
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as users \
anyway.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR \
class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>You may have aesthetic sense (although \
from a statistical point of view, given the sheer number of \
enlightenment-gothic-matrix-jessica-alba-theme screenshots over those which are, \
well, not eye-piercing, assuming a coder has aesthetic sense isn't a safe bet), you \
won't have any sense of usability though, because your way of using a machine is just \
so different from a normal user, and your understanding of it makes it impossible for \
you to put yourself in his shoes. There's a reason why (good) usability is done by \
different people than programmers, because not only is it a completely different set \
of skills, it's also something programmer minds are generally too warped to do \
properly.</DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: \
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; \
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; \
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; \
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: \
auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: \
0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; \
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: \
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: \
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: \
none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: \
2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>--</DIV><DIV>Guillaume \
</DIV><DIV><A href="http://telegraph-road.org">http://telegraph-road.org</A></DIV><BR \
class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>
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