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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Thoughts on the systray II.
From:       Lubos Lunak <l.lunak () suse ! cz>
Date:       2005-04-19 11:58:05
Message-ID: 200504191358.05643.l.lunak () suse ! cz
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On Monday 18 of April 2005 20:24, Aaron Seigo wrote:
> On April 18, 2005 15:34, Lubos Lunak wrote:
> > On Saturday 16 of April 2005 01:31, George Staikos wrote:
> > > On Friday 15 April 2005 12:46, Lubos Lunak wrote:
> > > > 2) converting applet-like systray apps to real applets. Aaron had
> > > > some issues with this because of having bad nightmares about XEmbed,
> > > > so this needs more discussion, the remaining complains can be
> > > > basically solved by saying "so that needs fixing/improving" if my
> > > > memory serves me well.
> > >
> > >    Discussions about these two at xdevconf seemed to show that everyone
> > > there interested agreed.
> >
> >  Aaron wasn't here :). And he doesn't seem to think converting the 2)
> > kind of systray apps to applet is a good idea.
>
> that's because "applet like systray apps" is not a meaningful distinction.

 It is. Applet-like systray apps are those that just have the systray icon and 
nothing else, no associated window or similar. When converted to real 
applets, there should be no real difference from the UI point of view other 
than the differences caused by the implementation and handling of applets.

> that's like saying "applications with a window". there are different types
> of applications that have windows with different sorts of needs. so SOME
> "applet-like" systray  apps should become applets, some should disapear
> into the background altogether, and some are probably best served in a
> simple tray area.

 Yes, exactly! And those groups of apps, in the order you list them here, are 
parts 2), 4) and 1) in my proposal. That simple tray area is what 1) will be.

>
> > >   What do you suggest for KWallet?  It's important to know that a
> > > wallet is open.  Likewise for the print manager...
> >
> >  Honestly, I don't know. Unlike Aaron, I don't want just to solve the
> > "systray mechanism sucks" problem, I also want to solve the "systray
> > concept sucks" problem.
>
> and this is our fundamental divide. i don't think the systray concept
> sucks. i think its abused because the way it is designed allows it to be
> abused. just because messed up once doesn't mean we should throw the baby
> out with the bathwater.

 Ok, let me put it this way. The systray certainly has problems, I hope even 
you admit it. In fact you already did, in your reply to my mail with the 
initial proposal. Let me copy&paste the problems here again:

(http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=110841124008784&w=2)

a) it mixes different concepts - there are "minimized" applications, there are 
status monitors, there are notifications, there are "applets"
b) it duplicates functionality from elsewhere - taskbar, normal panel applets
c) the close button mess complicates things for the user and for the developer 
(Aaron agrees :) http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/251). The developer 
has to explicitly take care of the close button, and shouldn't preferably 
break session management. The user is confused (or upset) by the close button 
sometimes quiting the app, sometimes not.
d) some applications live in the taskbar, while other are in the systray
e) apps cannot be moved from the taskbar to the systray without their explicit 
support (I don't count unreliable hacks like ksystraycmd as something usable)
f) the placement of the systray icons cannot be affected - e.g. there's no way 
I can put kxkb on my top panel and kopete on the bottom one
g) We all know what happens when left-clicking or right-clicking on the 
taskbar (the configured actions ;) ), but this is not the case with systray
h) probably more, feel free to add

 My proposal should solve all of the above listed problems (well, h) might be 
an exception ;) ). Of course, it may bring some new ones, that's the way the 
world is. Unless you want to live with the way systray currently is, how do 
YOU then suggest to solve those problems?

>
> that said, i really don't see the difference between your proposed patches
> and a "better systray".

 Because the patches are a better systray. Have a better underlying 
implementation, throw all the junk out of the old systray, and you have a new 
better systray.

>
> >  And the problem here is that I'd want to separate areas "my hidden apps
> > are here" and "notifications are here". But KWallet or the print manager
> > kind of fit in both. Maybe they could go to 1), but I'm really unsure
> > now.
>
> yes, the world is not a tidy place. this is where all such
> simplification-ad-absurdum type soultions start to fall apart. =(

 Since when separating a mixed mess into several groups is  
simplification-ad-absurdum? All real things have their problems, it's just 
that some have more of them.

-- 
Lubos Lunak
KDE developer
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