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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Apollon soon in kde-extragear
From:       "Petter E. Stokke" <gibreel () project23 ! no>
Date:       2004-02-10 20:39:48
Message-ID: 200402102139.55547.gibreel () project23 ! no
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On Tuesday 10 February 2004 21:00, Jeroen Wijnhout wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 February 2004 20:17, Petter E. Stokke wrote:
> > The difference is that KMLDonkey doesn't at any point implement or
> > link to any kind of P2P protocol implementation, whereas Apollon has a
> > compile time dependency on giFT. KMLDonkey doesn't even require any
> > P2P software installed on the same machine to be useful; it's
> > frequently used to access a remote mldonkey installation.
>
> Can you use KMLDonkey without mldonkey? No, you can't. Unless you enjoy
> staring at an empty listview.

Still, it does rather shut the MPAA up if they should come knocking and you 
ask them "show me the infringing code." The point here isn't to prove that 
KMLDonkey can be used to download illegal MP3s (it can), but that 
KMLDonkey itself directly contributes to or encourages the activity 
(which, if Grokster didn't, according to a US court of law, KMLDonkey 
certainly does not by a long shot).

> So there isn't any P2P code in KMLDonkey, but is very clear that
> KMLDonkey can only be used in combination with mldonkey. So in that
> respect, KMLDonkey is pretty much like Apollon. It would be different if
> KMLDonkey could also connect to a back-end that supports a P2P network
> with DRM (something that is 100% legal, without dispute), but that is
> not the case.

Nothing is 100% legal, without dispute, not even Linux (as I'm sure Darl 
McBride would be happy to tell you). If you want an example of a P2P 
protocol even the MPAA can't dispute the general legitimate usefulness of, 
how about BitTorrent? If even that doesn't sell you, how about HTTP? If 
you advocate putting DRM on _that_, I'm not sure I want to know about it.

> Also, KMLDonkey has very convenient options to search for mp3's, movies
> etc. Typically material that is downloaded illegally. It is clear what
> the intended use for KMLDonkey is, the same as Apollon.

Audio and video storage formats don't instantly imply illegality. I believe 
the MPAA already lost that debate in the 80's against Sony over the issue 
of VCRs. We're dealing with legality here - I'll have to refer you back to 
the Grokster/Morpheus case and dare you to explain how KMLDonkey could 
possibly be considered illegal if Grokster wasn't. I mean, we _all_ know 
what people used Grokster for (it wasn't for getting the latest Knoppix 
ISOs), but that's not the point. The point is that KMLDonkey _does_ have 
legitimate uses, doesn't explicitly encourage copyright infringement (MP3 
search filters aren't synonymous with "show me only the warez plz"), and 
most especially doesn't involve any kind of financial gain.

A wise man once said, "I'm not in favour of folding projects just because 
there is a vague perceived threat of a lawsuit."[1] If you'll excuse me 
for being presumptious, I'd like to pre-empt this whole discussion by 
asking the nay-sayers to point to some factual legal indication of 
KMLDonkey/Apollon jeopardising KDE in general. I've seen plenty of 
indications to the opposite[2], but so far the arguments of the other camp 
have basically been variants of "it's obvious you can download warez with 
it, ergo we must distance ourselves from it as far as we can on the off 
chance the MPAA comes calling." I'm not really sure I can spot the wisdom 
in that particular argument. We might as well drop Linux support in KDE 
just in case SCO should win, if we follow that line of reasoning too far.

> So I agree: Get KMLDonkey out of KEG or get Apollon in.

That's the third time someone's uttered that sentence today, and I still 
don't know if you're saying "get KMLDonkey out" or "get Apollon in." Me, 
I'd prefer the latter, even if I _am_ biased.

In fact, maybe one ought to add a disclaimer dialog at KMLDonkey/Apollon 
startup ("does not condone illegal redistribution" etc.) just to be on the 
safe side. Would that sell you, I wonder? :)

[1]: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-policies&m=106340212823535&w=2
[2]: In particular, what is certain to become the prize of my link 
collection (thank you, Waldo): 
http://www.hartmanwinnicki.com/Contributory_Copyright_Infr.htm

-- 
Petter E. Stokke <gibreel@project23.no> http://www.gibreel.net/
PGP key: http://www.gibreel.net/key.asc
Fingerprint: 4FF3 12BD 692A 0FFF 984F  78DA 4776 81FB 1906 3A9F

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