From kde-core-devel Mon Jul 28 10:14:50 2003 From: Bernhard Reiter Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:14:50 +0000 To: kde-core-devel Subject: Re: Qt 3.2 requirement X-MARC-Message: https://marc.info/?l=kde-core-devel&m=105938742016003 MIME-Version: 1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--Boundary-02=_eePJ/V5JSeGxqmw" --Boundary-02=_eePJ/V5JSeGxqmw Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: signed data Content-Disposition: inline Matthias, thanks for your post and opinion. Let me start responding to the issues you reased in reverse order. Naturally new versions of QT for KDE and Free Software in general are desirable and it is good that Trolltech makes them available.=20 Nobody proposed to stop testing new QT versions and I also don't intend doing so. Bugfixes and improvements are both important. As you can see from my other post responding to Ralf, I believe that the focus might slowly change over time. KDE is becoming a mainstream product and that is a huge success. It should be okay to try to evolutionary improve its development process if conditions change. Demanding "everything should run with=20 everything" is unreasonable as you have already implied. As hinted upon in my answer to Ralf, we might search for a way to not force developers (but encourage them) to test new QT versions and improve basic libraries without drawbacks for the stability. One idea would be to be more strict about separating bug-fixes from new features. I can fully understand your bug-fix argument, that has not been put forward in the debate so prominently yet. What were the reasons to not make a bug-fix only QT release and having a new feature release available at the same time? Note that the debate now has been drifted into more general matters. I stressed Cornelius concern originally , because I also share it. The first arguments coming against that view have not been very convincing. If QT 3.2 is close to a bug-fix only release,=20 it might be the right thing to switch the KDE 3.2 requirements to it. Still the arguments for or against it should have that drawback of forcing some developers in mind and may that can also be improved in the future. Bernhard On Sunday 27 July 2003 16:43, Matthias Ettrich wrote: > On Friday 25 July 2003 23:36, Ralf Nolden wrote: > > On Freitag, 25. Juli 2003 22:08, Bernhard Reiter wrote: > > > KDE libs should have their own stability criteria and not getting > > > forced by the QT schedule. You unnecessarily force all the developers > > > to test QT. > > > > Don't you realize that it's way harder to force the developers to stick > > with an older Qt than for the others to grab and compile a newer Qt ? > > They want to use things like QSplashScreen, see the recent other mails > > here. > > With Qt 3.2.0, the feature argument is rather weak. Unless you do database > development with the SQL module, there is little new and flashy in the > library that you must have. Lots of small nice things, yes, but nothing y= ou > cannot live without. QSplashScreen, as somebody mentioned, is a rather > simple class, KDE can easily provide its own. The community in India > hopefully has a very different opinion about 3.2.0, but it seems not all > western developers share this :( > > But even if you do not care about non-western alphabets there is another > "but", and that is a very big one: there are SEVERAL HUNDRED bugfixes in > 3.2.0. Smaller and larger issues, all reported by both the Qt and the KDE > community. Qt 3.2.0 is mostly about stability and minor improvements, and > little about new features (btw. in NoveHrady I will talk about new featur= es > and improvements Trolltech develops and plans for future versions). > > KDE users and developers who are happy with the subset of functionality > they are using, will most certainly vote for compatibility. And quite > rightly so, afer all it is the job of the OTHER authors to work around > problems in the libraries. Everything should run with evertyhing, right? > Why not run KDE 3.2 application with Qt 1.4, the kdesupport package from > KDE 2 and libkdeui from KDE 3.1? Answer: Because you end up with > stagnation, the smallest common denominator, and the most boring software > development model imaginable for a GUI framework. And your code has around > 5 lines of #ifdef ... #elseif ...#else ...#endif per line of logic. Look = at > the xterm sources for a shiny example. That's stuff some might do for a > living, but hardly for fun. > > Bernhard, when a fix or feature gets commited to libkdecore, do you also > raise your voice for not using the new features in KDE applications, and > not to rely on the bugfix, because somebody might chose to run new > applications and libraries linked against the old version? How do you thi= nk > KDE would look like if we did that right from the start? > > Trolltech treats KDE as one of our most important customers. In return, K= DE > provides a fair amount of exposure and - highly important - testing. I ho= pe > we can maintain this partnership and that the voices that want KDE > developers to stop test and use new Qt versions - and no longer benefit > from the work Trolltech provides to KDE - remain a minority. --Boundary-02=_eePJ/V5JSeGxqmw Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIG5zCCA24w ggLXoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwPTELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxGDAWBgNVBAoMD0ludGV2 YXRpb24gR21iSDEUMBIGA1UEAwwLV3VyemVsIFpTIDMwHhcNMDMwNjI4MTczMjAxWhcNMDgwNjI3 MTczMjAxWjA2MQswCQYDVQQGEwJERTEYMBYGA1UECgwPSW50ZXZhdGlvbiBHbWJIMQ0wCwYDVQQD DARaUyA0MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQD43bxDYhcb0rC4InYfDPX+TCd+TBVU fzCjsS4e6LS3Xmf3kC9W0LtcvBtYDhwU1pjYgAQUZy3qEOkicQcgP6CzileDs9uzZ15n+Nd1Ye6g xAoEtxY4TDm9J1FsNRycuHPNvOVcF8X/TtWGG1Fw1H+w4RBNUTvm6wKdRc+E1DXSlQIDAQABo4IB gzCCAX8wDwYDVR0TAQH/BAUwAwEB/zALBgNVHQ8EBAMCAQYwawYDVR0fBGQwYjBgoF6gXIZabGRh cDovL2NhLmludGV2YXRpb24ub3JnL2NuPVd1cnplbCBaUyAzLCBvPUludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSCwg Yz1ERT9jZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZVJldm9jYXRpb25MaXN0MB0GA1UdDgQWBBTpC2Y1APybXfobl6bvbeei CAqfFjBlBgNVHSMEXjBcgBSg1pV9tld6qf8t9ZykEbqfB+8Jz6FBpD8wPTELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUx GDAWBgNVBAoMD0ludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSDEUMBIGA1UEAwwLV3VyemVsIFpTIDOCAQAwNQYDVR0R BC4wLIEQY2FAaW50ZXZhdGlvbi5kZYYYaHR0cDovL2NhLmludGV2YXRpb24ubmV0MDUGA1UdEgQu MCyBEGNhQGludGV2YXRpb24uZGWGGGh0dHA6Ly9jYS5pbnRldmF0aW9uLm5ldDANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQQFAAOBgQCnwZPGbBIMrPLMXW3Z6w4JPiW/Crd8hR3He8BPY5N7u3ZRSo+mdkAzZ8YwfIJ9Fipj cl2IxQstvE38NAWFdsogdTMOJODVdJpjFEVcVK/u8bZOKismP4eo8X9Y4m0p+WMCG7C6PNMM/+l/ uawHwEbZs4Lp1leIeI8v2/QFP6nMWDCCA3EwggLaoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwNjEL MAkGA1UEBhMCREUxGDAWBgNVBAoMD0ludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSDENMAsGA1UEAwwEWlMgNDAeFw0w MzA2MzAxNjE3MzVaFw0wNTA2MjkxNjE3MzVaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRgwFgYDVQQKEw9JbnRl dmF0aW9uIEdtYkgxGDAWBgNVBAMTD0Jlcm5oYXJkIFJlaXRlcjCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOB jQAwgYkCgYEAxfEm4PybLti0jk+zmKPB+9Qu+nyjfsOf+VQ2/q5wPlGgQlAmA1xfjfAWCfS7KR1i 3BZmsx/HzW1dv1gNAVqYIk0V0Ls9TGJr8Z0IW1hR0UXY7qRCGAFJwiIKj0kwJepMpH22K/jHjQcn RX8VOdBo8dXyJPQcWcHkj2W8vdonrzUCAwEAAaOCAYIwggF+MAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwDgYDVR0P AQH/BAQDAgXgMGQGA1UdHwRdMFswWaBXoFWGU2xkYXA6Ly9jYS5pbnRldmF0aW9uLm9yZy9jbj1a UyA0LCBvPUludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSCwgYz1ERT9jZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZVJldm9jYXRpb25MaXN0ME8G CWCGSAGG+EIBDQRCFkBFLU1haWwgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGVzIGZvciBJbnRldmF0aW9uIGFuZCBmcmll bmRzIChub24tcHJvZHVjdGlvbikuMB0GA1UdDgQWBBSkusKJJedJL1PF+eXAiDJj6tJ9sDBlBgNV HSMEXjBcgBTpC2Y1APybXfobl6bvbeeiCAqfFqFBpD8wPTELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxGDAWBgNVBAoM D0ludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSDEUMBIGA1UEAwwLV3VyemVsIFpTIDOCAQEwIQYDVR0RBBowGIEWYmVy bmhhcmRAaW50ZXZhdGlvbi5kZTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQAd4yqTmH1n1flB/7NtXTlYh5nl x/dS6qALdMLB0ZdSuPKsargeb+Nb7VQ2uL8+N9c1N2unMn6mTeNtrXx98/gkGgQlLAyfEZ7JRX2y 28zFpAM/n1nay//M6Q+nUC28QwvfaxzPsIZo3t5+wC1RZcRndCOlBMSbmpmHwcf72Log7TGCATww ggE4AgEBMDswNjELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxGDAWBgNVBAoMD0ludGV2YXRpb24gR21iSDENMAsGA1UE AwwEWlMgNAIBATAHBgUrDgMCGqBdMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBSWvyRnIHcgQ8RHENTfRSkEAbB/ szAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wMzA3MjgxMDE0NTFa MAsGCSqGSIb3DQEBAQSBgJd5bJYw5trZ2s1FNWJCyNAYw/fUT+08zKlOqpkTMLVc0bvR/x2YspXP +WsjM96LVLxbWSNvTvtWA/NwW912iZOig1JHoRnqZMP7XReta8D+yVferHGxEYAaLfgV2J6d/hDG 1sFYA5Xy1I5NWPl+iwDFp1RAarecqsJ8SSoFFgZgAAAAAAAA --Boundary-02=_eePJ/V5JSeGxqmw--