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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Revolutionary Change (kicker)
From:       m_elter () t-online ! de (Matthias Elter)
Date:       2001-09-16 10:59:43
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On Sunday 16 September 2001 07:05, Charles Samuels wrote:
> > Sounds like a matter of taste. My opinion is that 64x64 icons are a waste
> > of screen space.
>
> A 64px bar at the side of a screen takes less spacet han the (average size
> here), a 48px bar at the bottom.  And I think most would agree that
> vertical space is more valuable than horizontal space.

kicker has a vertical mode, so I don't see your point about vertical vs. 
horizontal screen space. I also know quite some people using kicker in small 
or tiny mode (crazy, isn't it?).

> > I have panel buttons for all my frequently used apps.
>
> But you don't have an "expanding wharf-bar", but instead have menus, which
> take a hugely more significant time to operate.

I'm not sure why menu bars are harder to navigate? Because the menu items are 
smaller? You are right that a drawer button similar to the one found in GNOME 
panel would be nice to have.

> > > e) Users have difficulty identifying apps for the first time by icon,
> > > all wharf buttons can have captions.
> >
> > A 64 pixel caption? Like "GTV MPEG Pla" in your screenshot?
>
> Right :) But then, "GTV MPEG Pla" tells pretty much everyone what they want
> to know, anyone that knows they want an mpeg player would be able to tell
> that that's it.  And of course, I don't want to deprive the users of a
> k-menu menu, but once they see "GTV MPEG Player" in the menu, a "GTV MPEG
> Pla" in the multimedia group will immediately make sense.

Sure most people get the point when they see "GTV MPEG Pla" in the caption. 
It just looks very unprofessional in my opinion.

> > > h) it looks better
> >
> > Does it?
>
> If you don't like this, it's, more configurable than Kicker

I think kicker is configurable enough. KDE is not only for geeks but also 
supposed to be a UI for normal users. Usability != Configurability.

> > P.S.: I don't want to offend you, but why not simply work on Window Maker
> > to make it 100% NET_WM compliant?
>
> I don't care if it's NET_WM compliant, and I still don't use it, because I
> not only don't especially like it, but I very much like KDE.

I like KDE, too. My point is that with some work on Window Makers NET_WM 
compliance it would make a nice alternative to kwin and kicker for people who 
prefer the NetStep look and feel.

> And I also don't want to offend you, because Kicker is mostly your app. 
> It's not that I don't like kicker, it's just that I think it's following in
> the footsteps of a bad idea (MS's taskbar)

I'm not that easy to offend and I see your point, but usability is not a 
trivial topic. You say the MS taskbar is a bad concept, but how is this 
supposed to be an argument without any proof? Can you show me usability 
studies supporting your theory?

And no matter which concept might be superior in general, easy to use is what 
people are used too.

> > Seriously, my opinion is that while this is a matter of taste a NextStep
> > like UI clearly is a very bad default considering what new users comming
> > from windows are used to.
>
> Now, this is tough to argue for or against, on one hand, being like windows
> is a good thing, and on the other hand, how good is it to copy a bad idea?
> But this really is a simple concept, much more simple to understand than a
> "taskbar" (MS had an irritating "click here to start" animation on the
> taskbar, in fact, for this reason).

See my comment above.

> Let's also not forget that the word "Start" is much more meaningful than
> "K" with a gear.  And I've had (family, windows users, in fact) that have
> difficulty at first realizing what the K button does, even though it's so
> similar to windows.  I should point out that this could be a good
> incremental step, replacing the K-gear icon to something more meaningful,
> something I (as a non-artist) can't think of now.

I agree that the K icon might not be very intuitive.

Greetings,
Matthias

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