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List: kde-community
Subject: Re: Licensing policy change proposal
From: "Mirko Boehm (KDE)" <mirko () kde ! org>
Date: 2019-01-28 22:51:47
Message-ID: BBDDE114-F430-4C1F-A90C-439DB98A5EC9 () kde ! org
[Download RAW message or body]
Hi,
sorry, but this email contains a lot of assertions that cannot stand.
> On 28. Jan 2019, at 14:28, Krešimir Čohar <kcohar@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It violates the Open Source definition, especially the rule against \
> > discrimination against use or user. This has been a long-time yardstick for the \
> > KDE community.
> There isn't any discrimination? As long as the operators of the website are being \
> truthful, no one's rights have been violated without consent seeing as they were \
> waived voluntarily. Also, if I'm not mistaken, open source =/= free and open \
> source.
FOSS licenses need to work transitively. We as a community distribute so that other \
can freely use and redistribute. Any restrictions against certain types of use \
undermine that. That is why the Open Source Definition disapproves any such \
restrictions.
> > There is. We cannot prove that we have explicit permission from the author to use \
> > or distribute the work. We also have no way of tracking that who submits the work \
> > to our channels has the right to do so. The idea of "public domain" only really \
> > works for works where copyright has expired.
>
> Several specious arguments here.
> First, while it is hardly impossible to acquire proof that the authors' rights have \
> been waived, I would surmise that it is rarely done.
Not the point. That is like arguing you can speed if you don't get caught.
> In addition, if the operators of the website are, again, being truthful, they are \
> the copyright holders and there is simply no need to ask anything of the original \
> authors.
The creators of the work are the authors and give the license, not the web site \
operators. Unless that is the same person. You get the idea.
> Second, no way of tracking if the person submitting the work has the right to do \
> so? Isn't that covered in the license itself? Or are you just saying that we simply \
> don't know if they're lying?
That argument was specifically for public domain works. If a work comes without \
information about the copyright holder, how can we know if we can use it? Who gives \
the public domain dedication? How can you prove it? What if the author changes their \
mind? …
> Third, I wholeheartedly disagree. Not only does the public domain cover \
> intellectual properties the rights to which have been waived (in addition to \
> property whose copyright has expired), it also covers a variety of other \
> situations, see more here: https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html \
> <https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html>
So much confusion. This web site speaks about US copyright law, where public domain \
dedications exist. Our responsible legal body is in Germany.
> A great example of this are movies, television series, books with the same name \
> because titles, names etc. don't receive copyright protection (and are hence public \
> domain).
There is a difference between something not being creative enough to be separately \
copyrighted and something being public domain. From one does not follow the other. If \
we need to discuss this, there are a couple of knowledgeable people on this list. \
However I think it gets us nowhere and we are not the right forum for it.
Best,
Mirko.
--
Mirko Boehm | mirko@kde.org | KDE e.V.
FSFE Team Germany
Qt Certified Specialist and Trainer
Request a meeting: https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm
[Attachment #3 (unknown)]
<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; \
charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; \
line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi,<div class=""><div><br \
class=""></div><div>sorry, but this email contains a lot of assertions that cannot \
stand.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 28. \
Jan 2019, at 14:28, Krešimir Čohar <<a href="mailto:kcohar@gmail.com" \
class="">kcohar@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br \
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, \
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: \
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: \
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">>It violates the \
Open Source definition, especially the rule against discrimination against use or \
user. This has been a long-time yardstick for the KDE community.</div><div \
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; \
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: \
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: \
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" \
class="">There isn't any discrimination? As long as the operators of the website are \
being truthful, no one's rights have been violated without consent seeing as they \
were waived voluntarily. Also, if I'm not mistaken, open source =/= free and open \
source.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>FOSS licenses need to work \
transitively. We as a community distribute so that other can freely use and \
redistribute. Any restrictions against certain types of use undermine that. That is \
why the Open Source Definition disapproves any such restrictions.</div><div><br \
class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); \
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: \
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: \
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">>There is. We \
cannot prove that we have explicit permission from the author to use or distribute \
the work. We also have no way of tracking that who submits the work to our channels \
has the right to do so. The idea of "public domain" only really works for works where \
copyright has expired.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: \
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; \
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br \
class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; \
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; \
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \
text-decoration: none;" class="">Several specious arguments here.</div><div \
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; \
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: \
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: \
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" \
class="">First, while it is hardly impossible to acquire proof that the authors' \
rights have been waived, I would surmise that it is rarely \
done.</div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Not the point. That is like \
arguing you can speed if you don't get caught.</div><br class=""><blockquote \
type="cite" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; \
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; \
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \
text-decoration: none;" class=""> In addition, if the operators of the website are, \
again, being truthful, they are the copyright holders and there is simply no need to \
ask anything of the original authors.</div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>The \
creators of the work are the authors and give the license, not the web site \
operators. Unless that is the same person. You get the idea. </div><div><br \
class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); \
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: \
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: \
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Second, no way of \
tracking if the person submitting the work has the right to do so? Isn't that covered \
in the license itself? Or are you just saying that we simply don't know if they're \
lying?</div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>That argument was specifically for \
public domain works. If a work comes without information about the copyright holder, \
how can we know if we can use it? Who gives the public domain dedication? How can you \
prove it? What if the author changes their mind? …</div><div><br \
class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); \
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: \
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: \
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Third, I \
wholeheartedly disagree. Not only does the public domain cover intellectual \
properties the rights to which have been waived (in addition to property whose \
copyright has expired), it also covers a variety of other situations, see more \
here:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a \
href="https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html" \
class="">https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html</a></div></blockquote><div><br \
class=""></div>So much confusion. This web site speaks about US copyright law, where \
public domain dedications exist. Our responsible legal body is in \
Germany.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div \
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; \
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: \
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: \
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" \
class="">A great example of this are movies, television series, books with the same \
name because titles, names etc. don't receive copyright protection (and are hence \
public domain).</div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div>There is a difference \
between something not being creative enough to be separately copyrighted and \
something being public domain. From one does not follow the other. If we need to \
discuss this, there are a couple of knowledgeable people on this list. However I \
think it gets us nowhere and we are not the right forum for it.</div><div><br \
class=""></div><div>Best,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Mirko.</div><div \
class=""> <div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; \
line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); \
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; \
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">-- </div><div \
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; \
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; \
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \
text-decoration: none;">Mirko Boehm | <a href="mailto:mirko@kde.org" \
class="">mirko@kde.org</a> | KDE e.V.<br class="">FSFE Team Germany<br \
class="">Qt Certified Specialist and Trainer<br class="">Request a meeting: <a \
href="https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm" \
class="">https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm</a></div></div> </div>
<br class=""></div></body></html>
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