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Hi,
We had a pretty constructive meeting in #active about what we want PA3 to
become. The result is a list of use cases that will need to be fulfilled in
PA3. Details will be put up on a wiki page in a day.
The meeting log is here http://pastebin.com/yP34CER5 and attached to this
email.
Cheers,
--
Shantanu Tushar
http://www.shantanutushar.com
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Hi,
We had a pretty constructive meeting in #active about what we want PA3 to become. The result is a list of use cases that will need to be fulfilled in PA3. Details will be put up on a wiki page in a day.
The meeting log is here http://pastebin.com/yP34CER5 and attached to this email.
Cheers,
--
Shantanu Tushar
http://www.shantanutushar.com
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[20:32:24] so
[20:32:42] let's see who raises the hand, all present for the=
meeting? :)
[20:32:51] \o
[20:33:25] yes
[20:33:32] o/
[20:33:39] --> ghinda (~quassel@188.24.36.183) has joined #active
[20:33:39] I'm here
[20:34:26] o/
[20:34:47] o/
[20:35:26] o/
[20:36:37] o/
[20:36:56] -*- ingwa is a filthy lurker
[20:37:08] yep
[20:37:11] <-- afiestas_ (~asf@93.224.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) has qu=
it (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:37:42] o/
[20:38:02] we are more or less everybody i think ;)
[20:39:32] >
[20:40:28] so, we could start by telling on how each one hope=
s to see the pa3, ie focusing more on what (a particular set of experim=
ental new features? particular missing pieces to be a product?) whateve=
r
[20:40:37] so we can put the discussion in context
[20:41:50] I think we should make creating apps for PA easie=
r. It's very important to attract more developers.
[20:42:27] yes, I think a good developer story should really be=
in place for PA3
[20:42:38] making *installation* of apps easier, =C3=A1 la app =
store.
[20:43:36] Sorry to interrrupt, but these seem to be already =
too detailed requirements to me. Could we please focus on a general dir=
ection first?
[20:44:05] Or have we already agreed on "User-ready product" =
as a general goal?
[20:44:11] lamarque: you did the new halt-sleep-reboot selector=
, didnt you? :)
[20:44:34] domme: yes, I implemented it.
[20:44:55] --> afiestas (~asf@93.224.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) has joi=
ned #active
[20:44:56] lamarque: sorry if i am outdated, have tested it onl=
y a few weeks ago.. is there a way to hibernate the device with that?
[20:45:56] i'm not using the tablet too often so when i lay it =
to sleep.. the battery is always empty when i try to switch it on ;)
[20:45:57] only in default theme. The contour theme (used in=
Plasma Active) we decided to remove hibernate (suspend to disk) and ke=
ep only sleep (suspend to ram).
[20:45:58] domme: could you ask those questions later when we h=
ave finished our meeting?
[20:46:01] -*- Shaan7 raises hands now o/
[20:46:15] oops, didnt know it's meeting time :P
[20:46:21] perhaps someone could change the topic?
[20:46:38] -*- domme leaves
[20:46:57] you can stay, if you want :)
[20:47:21] so let's get back to topic
[20:47:51] I guess if we want the normal joe to use PA, we sho=
uld make sure that common usecases are satisfied and doable on PA.
[20:48:20] maybe have a list of those usecases and mark them "=
possible/doable" ?
[20:48:22] yep
[20:48:34] I plan to improve the webbrowser further, I think th=
at's the most important app
[20:48:41] to me yes, a priority should be polishing up and s=
ee what's missing to have it more product
[20:48:43] but just imo
[20:48:52] perhaps having a wizard on first boot?
[20:49:00] So is this our goal? Or do we want to focus on cre=
ating the best possible devloping platform so others can help us getitn=
g a user-ready product for the next release?
[20:49:02] javier: for setting up?
[20:49:04] webkit2 based won't happen before PA3 unfortunately,=
we'll have to wait for Qt5 / Frameworks 5
[20:49:14] Shaan7: yep
[20:49:21] colomar: both :)
[20:49:26] it's not one or the other
[20:49:31] chicken n egg problem ::P
[20:49:46] sebas: Do we have enough resources to reach both g=
oals for PA3?
[20:49:46] sebas any chance of havin webbeowser qt5 soon wh=
ile the eest is qt4?
[20:50:13] ivan4real: hardly, we'll want kdewebkit pieces
[20:50:19] <-- trueg (~trueg@88.130.204.67) has quit
[20:50:23] and those rely heavly on QWebPage, which will change=
big time
[20:50:24] ok
[20:50:27] If we do, I'm all for it. But we have to avoid get=
ting half-way to both goals but not reaching any of them
[20:50:46] ack
[20:51:01] -*- notmart thinks the two goals are the same, really
[20:51:23] as I said, its almost the chicken n egg problem
[20:51:37] no devs =3D> no apps =3D> no users or no users =3D>=
no devs :/
[20:52:05] so yea, doing both is important
[20:52:27] <-- yue (~quassel@110.251.138.66) has quit (Quit: No Ping re=
ply in 180 seconds.)
[20:52:34] also have to consider devices in that loop
[20:52:38] javier: I guess launching the systemsettings app at=
first boot should do, its quite simple I suppose?
[20:52:40] Shaan7: yes, but devs needs good documentation ab=
out the API. Users need good wizards and easy to use apps to guide them=
.
[20:52:52] For PA2, we wanted to make specific usecases work, i=
s that still our plan?
[20:52:57] guess that having harmattan apps to work on pa c=
ould be nice
[20:53:05] sebas: I like that plan
[20:53:16] I'm actually missing some very basic things, such as=
"sending a link to the tablet" from my desktop for reading it later
[20:53:30] Shaan7: that plus other things like connecting to y=
our home wireless network
[20:53:33] that's within SLC area, partly
[20:53:57] also the picture workflow
[20:53:59] For the product goal, we definitely need usecases =
completed. However, many of the usecases we developed during the last s=
print were really cool, but rather non-basic
[20:54:04] -*- Shaan7 is all with the satisfy usecases idea
[20:54:14] sebas: we really need a way to sync data through =
USB or even Internet. Smartphones used to come with such programs, like=
the PC Suite for Nokia phones.
[20:54:15] sebas: do we have a list of usecases?
[20:54:22] so for that, we'd need to check what pieces are miss=
ing to complete these workflows
[20:54:41] lamarque: yes, that's another such possible usecase,=
importing data
[20:54:58] partly overlaps with the images (as in "importing im=
ages from phone / camera")
[20:55:04] and again: sharing of images
[20:55:24] sorry for asking again, but do we have a list of su=
ch usecases? will be useful :)
[20:55:41] and activity syncing
[20:55:46] sebas: I'd say we first need to define all the bas=
ic usecases. The scenarios we have are rather "look what we can do!", n=
ot necessarily the basic must-haves
[20:56:01] +1
[20:56:05] colomar: yes, that's the first step
[20:56:05] +1
[20:56:09] --> yue (~quassel@110.251.138.66) has joined #active
[20:56:12] wiki? etherpad?
[20:56:29] then we need to look into how they should work, and =
then what's missing, then implement it, then fix it, then release it
[20:56:39] Shaan7: I'd say Wiki
[20:56:49] That's what we're mostly using so far
[20:56:52] wiki for end results
[20:57:03] something collaborative for in-meeting editting
[20:57:04] colomar: if we all go right now and edit the wiki, =
kaboom!
[20:57:15] Yes
[20:57:18] aseigo: exactly
[20:57:29] somebody has an etherpad instance?
[20:57:29] I meant for the end results ;)
[20:57:43] I don't have one
[20:57:50] can just as jeff, maybe he's online
[20:57:53] yeah, for the end result, dump it on the wiki or t=
hey get lost ;)
[20:57:57] -*- Shaan7 has, but for conf.kde.in planning :P
[20:58:21] http://notes.kde.org/plasma <--- use that for now..=
.
[20:58:29] ah works
[20:58:59] cool :)
[20:59:00] and please put your names in there.. helpful
[20:59:03] Is it okay if we clear it first?
[20:59:22] colomar: no, and it isn't necessary to do so
[20:59:40] ok
[21:00:08] Importing photos from phone / camera, sorting, sha=
ring are kinda separate things i think... same workflow, but touches al=
most everything ;)
[21:00:33] sebas: you know, it has occured to me that if we we=
re able to synchronize activities, that moving urls, etc would be handl=
ed already
[21:00:59] aseigo: yes
[21:01:00] -*- unormal is back now as well.
[21:01:10] aseigo: +1
[21:01:12] some interfacing with bookmarks sharing services wou=
ld still be nice
[21:03:42] k, editing frenzy is slowing down
[21:03:52] sebas: would be nice to use owncloud for that
[21:04:18] ah yea, owncloud =3D=3D free sync
[21:04:41] yep
[21:04:54] I should install that some day
[21:05:14] ownCloud implements Open Collaboration Services?
[21:05:29] Shaan7: free-ish, you should alwayswrite a client =
to talk to it :p
[21:05:57] sebas: I think so. weren't both things started by t=
he same person (Frank)?
[21:06:15] notmart: yep, so if the tablet runs a owncloud inst=
ance, the user could just browse to the tablet's (ip?) and copy stuff o=
ver
[21:06:20] yes, doesn't mean he talks to .. himself ;)
[21:06:21] javier: yes they were
[21:06:28] sebas: i think it's mostly webdav based
[21:06:44] still fine with KIO then
[21:06:48] -*- aseigo doesn't see, really, how OCS would map to ownClou=
d, but who knows...
[21:06:52] yep, works flawlessly
[21:06:57] should work pretty much transparantly for most thing=
s
[21:07:12] maybe there is a more "fine grained" API for non-fil=
e data
[21:07:26] well the useful part for us is, just mount a webdav=
share on user's machine and the user copies music etc to it
[21:07:29] "the web interface is using HTML5 and we support ot=
her open standards like the Open Collaboration Services or Ampache for =
media streaming"
[21:07:54] I think owncloud support would be great, but we ne=
ed to offer alternatives, I guess. Not every user would want to set up =
owncloud to sync stuff with his tablet
[21:07:57] sebas: iirc they considered syncml for things like=
addressbooks,calendars etc
[21:08:06] dunno if is something actually implemented
[21:08:07] hmm
[21:08:11] -*- sebas neither
[21:08:15] ile 4: 24867 Ung=C3=BCltiger Maschinenbefehl LD=
_LIBRARY_PATH=3D"/usr/lib/virtualbox${LD_LIBRARY_PATH:+:$LD_LIBRARY_PAT=
H}" /usr/lib/virtualbox/VirtualBox $@
[21:08:16] trebor@central-unit:~> excuse me for little break=
. according for usecases. i have one personally suggestion. think about=
text/pdf/ebook reading. mark text. sort texts in projects. would be us=
eful for university or also business. the only reason I would buy a tab=
let
[21:08:18] colomar: i'm thinking of something crazy so that th=
ey wont need to :P
[21:08:19] could ask though :)
[21:08:40] Will it be feasible to run a owncloud instance on t=
he tablet itself?
[21:08:51] trebor__: added ebook reading to the list
[21:08:51] why would you?
[21:09:06] Shaan7: in theory yes.
[21:09:08] it will be offline most of the time for other machin=
es
[21:09:22] yeah, in theory you can run it on the same machine
[21:09:24] sebas: so then I use my PC to goto http://tablet an=
d copy my files
[21:09:32] and because we package it, user doesnt need to set =
it up
[21:09:33] yeah, i see it more as a passive client
[21:09:49] Shaan7: you can user your PC and go to fish://tablet=
already, not ownCloud needed :)
[21:09:53] <-- rnovacek (radek@nat/redhat/x-zvcererefbqwpcot) has quit =
(Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[21:09:57] just enable ssh server
[21:10:24] -*- notmart would more like to say to his owncloud server (d=
oesn't matter installed where) what files i want on my tablet, and then=
the tablet will independently download what's needed (tm)
[21:10:28] ah, I didnt know fish, have been using the terminal=
and rsync'ing till now
[21:10:55] notmart: will need to add some magic to owncloud fo=
r that ;)
[21:10:56] Shaan7: so 70s...
[21:11:00] :P
[21:11:43] I don't even know if ownCloud specifically does book=
marks
[21:11:51] sebas: yep works like a charm, wonder why i never s=
aw this before O_o
[21:11:52] or newsfeeds, read/unread
[21:11:59] Shaan7: \o/
[21:12:13] --> pvdm_ (~pvdm@pvdm.xs4all.nl) has joined #active
[21:12:45] Shaan7: yeah, this feature is there from like 2002=
(working with kate on a file over ssh rocks) we just suck at promoting=
:p
[21:12:57] seriously
[21:13:39] so maybe just make fish:// more discoverable to the=
user?
[21:13:41] <-- ivan4real (~user@net194-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has qu=
it (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:13:42] where from here? we have a list in random order of =
various use cases...
[21:13:48] Shaan7: welcome to the wonderful world of KDE3 ;)
[21:13:51] Shaan7: bit ot now ;)
[21:13:59] Seems like we mixed up usecases with requirements =
a little (I'm guilty here as well), but we can clean that up later ;)
[21:14:03] ah, so what do we use now?
[21:14:08] a file manager another thing
[21:14:13] aseigo: prioritizing? wondering for each one what =
needs to be done
[21:14:23] and say this we can do, this is unlikely etc
[21:14:45] then from that i would like to have a more specifi=
c definition of what needs to be done
[21:14:46] Maybe group them first, then prioritize
[21:14:56] yep
[21:15:01] like "write an slc plugin" or write c bookmark syn=
c client to owncloud
[21:15:08] notmart: isn't it a little difficult to know if it =
is unlikely without having a slightly more specific definition?
[21:15:13] yes
[21:15:24] -*- aseigo is in favour of grouping.
[21:15:29] (as a first step)
[21:18:50] ok, prioritizing
[21:19:20] to me personally, the Browsing part is pretty import=
ant
[21:19:20] color coding sucks
[21:19:50] tell me about it, I am daltonian :)
[21:20:00] so now we shuffle the list of write a new one?
[21:20:23] either is fine with me :)
[21:20:30] lamarque: one place where you can be happy :P
[21:20:34] Maybe first assign numbers, then reorder?
[21:21:20] i don't think we can prioritize with such a list
[21:21:26] there isn't enough information
[21:21:40] so, elaborating the points
[21:21:59] +1
[21:22:03] notmart: personally, i think that is a take-away ta=
sk
[21:22:12] uh?
[21:22:33] -*- Shaan7 saw take away at dominos :P
[21:22:50] yeah, maybe we try to nail it down one by one
[21:23:02] i would love to see each point there championed by =
one or more individuals who then creates a small but standardized set o=
f information describing the task goals (what and why), proposed soluti=
on and estimation of cost
[21:23:22] the points that nobody champions gets swept to the =
side
[21:23:32] I can take on the browsing task then
[21:23:52] lets just start adding descriptions ..
[21:24:01] the items that do get such an item for them would t=
hen be prioritized by us together -> "in" or "out" for PA3.. items can =
be punted to future releases as needed
[21:24:06] can do the shell one
[21:24:14] i see two things missing still.. make that 3...
[21:24:14] then pick something else like file handling
[21:24:35] 1) data security layer (already being worked on, no=
?)
[21:24:52] yeah, added it as encrypted activities
[21:24:57] 2) sync of activities
[21:25:20] aseigo: Should it really be binary decisions? In t=
hat case we'd need to look at the list form time to time and see if we =
have to drop more or can add more, unless our estimates are really real=
ly good ;)
[21:25:23] 3) a pet issue of mine ... integrating sleep/shutdo=
wn with the lock screen to get rid of that duplication
[21:25:45] colomar: yes, as tasks get completed, more get pick=
ed up
[21:25:48] <-- allee (~quassel@allee.mpe.mpg.de) has quit (Remote host =
closed the connection)
[21:26:02] aseigo: added those 3 under device shell
[21:26:05] -*- aseigo notes this should be familiar by now to most plas=
ma devs ... though we are missing the sticky notes ;)
[21:26:39] so ... first thing i like about this is that it ver=
y application centric
[21:26:50] eh :)
[21:27:20] problem of the interwebs is that you can't have re=
al sticky notes and stick them on the hair of other people when you are=
done :p
[21:27:24] there's a natural shift away from concentrating ful=
ly on the shell itself. huzzah for that
[21:27:32] notmart: indeed. the internet sucks ;)
[21:27:41] Maybe we should borrow some concepts from Scrum an=
yway, but that's a different topic ;)
[21:28:35] I love the "few weeks sprints with review and plan=
ning in-between" stuff
[21:28:52] colomar: we discussed that and even tried it after =
the first plasma active meeting
[21:29:14] scrum seems to work a lot better if we're in the sam=
e room
[21:29:17] --> allee (~quassel@allee.mpe.mpg.de) has joined #active
[21:29:34] I think we'll do our usual "knock things off the lis=
t" thing
[21:29:38] few of us are keeping up with icescrum..
[21:29:40] -*- Shaan7 brb, call
[21:29:55] where seems to fail is to work at all with occasio=
nal contributors
[21:30:17] hm maybe
[21:30:17] notmart: yep
[21:30:43] Although taking a look at where we stand form time=
to time might still help, although in a less ofrmal way
[21:31:07] o <> f
[21:31:11] so... standard layout for proposed actions ..
[21:31:21] -*- notmart remembers the icescrum page of plasma desktop.. =
did work perfectly just until we were all in the same house :p
[21:31:59] aseigo: What, why, and how?
[21:32:11] colomar: yes, absolutely, otherwise ends up in a b=
unch of abstract stuff that won't get done
[21:32:13] + effort estimation
[21:32:46] + clearly defined usage scenario
[21:32:49] + also a who ;)
[21:33:13] + depedencies with other tasks
[21:33:16] I can surely do some of the what and why stuff, bu=
t the technical part of the "how" and the estimation would be tricky fo=
r me ;)
[21:34:40] colomar: estimation is always tricky
[21:34:56] Yes. But even more if you don't code
[21:35:05] logarithmic scales for that make sense :)
[21:35:05] ah
[21:35:22] "If I don't get it done today, I'll have the rest of=
the week for it" ;)
[21:36:11] -*- sebas sees aseigo thinking out loud on etherpad
[21:36:14] -*- ivan|home finally got back
[21:36:38] imo, it is wrong to do a owncloud sync -- we nee=
d something that will be able to sync to anything
[21:36:39] sebas: and trying to capture what you are putting h=
ere...
[21:36:46] cal - anything that has caldav
[21:36:55] stuff - any ftp webdav etc.
[21:36:57] ...
[21:37:21] ivan|home: i think we'll need different synchers at =
the same time
[21:37:34] ivan|home: if there was a way to offer people easy =
access to owncloud instances, i'd rather have nice integration (e.g. ze=
ro config set up) than have something that works with anything but requ=
ires tons of set up
[21:37:59] having one thing that works great is a huge win ove=
r having all possibilities, all of which are a PITA
[21:38:03] -*- aseigo looks at kontact
[21:38:34] that is also a part quite tricky to estimate since=
i don't think any of us already digged in to that, ie what would be re=
quired to get done on our part, on ownclud part etc
[21:38:36] it's a huge win because people will actually use it=
.
[21:38:59] from my pov - we should have a global account se=
tup thingie, the thingie would know that owncloud provides webdav, cald=
av and whatever else and all interested apps would be able to work with=
it
[21:39:24] something like telepathy - you set the accounts =
- and then the service tells you which capabilities it has
[21:39:39] it has google talk set upper :) and jabber separ=
ated
[21:39:44] although it is the same thing
[21:39:51] global account setup, good point, that would be ne=
eded also for slc plugins for instance
[21:39:55] so you get the power as well as the simple setup=
[21:40:03] that will be a dependency for a fair amount of poi=
nts
[21:40:21] notmart: yes, slc, sync, kontact, im, microblogg=
ing etc
[21:40:51] for example - slc would go like this:
[21:41:02] 1. oh, im getting image/png
[21:41:12] 2. get me all stuff where I can send an image
[21:41:21] while that is workable for something like IM, faceb=
ookish sites, micrblogging, etc.. i am a lot more sceptical, based on e=
xperience, that it can be done as smoothly for a data sync solution
[21:41:26] 2. the accounts returned - twitter, fb, picasa .=
.. email
[21:41:30] and yes, a global accounts manager is something tha=
t ought to be on the hitlist.
[21:42:21] aseigo: sync would be more difficult, I agree, b=
ut I think that we could pull out some general stuff that applies to mo=
st sync things
[21:42:41] About telepathy I can contact them as I'm already =
in contact with mck182 and drf about some video chat/KDE telepathy solu=
tion. Or is there a telepathy guy already here?
[21:42:47]