From kde-accessibility Sun Oct 14 08:26:23 2018 From: Frederik Gladhorn Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 08:26:23 +0000 To: kde-accessibility Subject: Re: KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions Message-Id: <3939684.XV0WXz3IxV () lumpi> X-MARC-Message: https://marc.info/?l=kde-accessibility&m=153950560825229 Hi Chrys, It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very happy :) On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote: > Howdy Frederik, >=20 > > You need a general KDE account that works for everything. > > https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=3Dregistration/index > > is where you should be able to sign up. >=20 > Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now. >=20 > > I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma > > mailing list as a first step. >=20 > so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/ needs > for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or should > i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to > another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to > myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date? Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking purposes and t= o=20 have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard stuff w= e=20 want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it can be= =20 quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway. >=20 > > These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on > > the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do > > it. > ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as soon i > can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work). > as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as > IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical > "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure). Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did attempt=20 before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good progress= =20 with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state. I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, but f= or=20 example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be=20 rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a bit=20 intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build and work= ,=20 depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy. >=20 > > Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for > > planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress > > reports. >=20 > ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team" blog? > maybe others wants to blog there as well? > maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction how to > make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at > mailing list). Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get Orca= =20 working in general, that would be great! Cheers, =46rederik >=20 > cheers chrys >=20 > Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn: > > Hi Chrys and everyone, > >=20 > > I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant and try > > to > > answer inline below. > >=20 > > On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST chrys@linux-a11y.org wrote: > >> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma: > >> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets, tray > >> whatever) > >=20 > > This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I think > > once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make > > improvements since this comes from users and not just me :) > > I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma > > mailing list as a first step. > >=20 > >> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles > >=20 > > These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on > > the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do > > it.>=20 > >> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes > >=20 > > That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I think > > this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps how to > > reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca, let's > > see.>=20 > >> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure orca deas > >> not > >> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas QT scrips are not as good tes= ted > >> as its GTK script) > >=20 > > These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate > > backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE. > >=20 > >> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol > >>=20 > >> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?) weit= ten > >> in qml. > >> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :). > >> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help others t= oo: > >> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html > >> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html > >> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingSta= rte > >> d > >>=20 > >> I currently play with that. > >=20 > > Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the > > docs. > >=20 > >>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planni= ng. > >>>=20 > >>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for co= de > >>> review. > >>>=20 > >>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility: > >>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/ > >>=20 > >> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like missing a11y labels = or > >> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations. > >>=20 > >> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create todos = or > >> send patches? How is the wotkflow here? > >=20 > > You need a general KDE account that works for everything. > > https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=3Dregistration/index > > is where you should be able to sign up. > >=20 > > The same credentials should work for phabricator: > > https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=3D%2F > >=20 > > I hope all of that is accessible! > >=20 > >>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what = is > >>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things > >>=20 > >> that > >>=20 > >>> don't work. > >>=20 > >> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/ > >> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner > >> in QT/ QML / Plasma world. > >>=20 > >>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention = :) > >>=20 > >> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE a11y > >> blogging section or category ? > >=20 > > Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for > > planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress > > reports. > >=20 > >> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for > >> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be > >> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side > >> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to > >> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people dont > >> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still =E2=80=9Enothing = works > >> there for me=E2=80=9C and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great w= ork > >> already happend at this sector already. > >=20 > > Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues, > > people > > are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's assume go= od > > faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making things more > > accessible. > >=20 > > Cheers, > > Frederik > >=20 > >> Cheers, greez from germany > >>=20 > >> Chrys > >>=20 > >> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn : > >>> Hi Chrys, > >>>=20 > >>> I'll answer your mail inline, below. > >>>=20 > >>> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST chrys@linux-a11y.org wrote: > >>>> Howdy list, > >>>>=20 > >>>> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m new to > >>>> this list. > >>>> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/ > >>=20 > >> Plasma. > >>=20 > >>>> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i wont > >>>> miss it now (lol). > >>>> I use KWins zoom plugin. > >>>=20 > >>> Great to hear that the zooming works :) > >>>=20 > >>>> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same > >>>> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of > >>>> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop (search in > >>>> menu and those stuff). > >>>> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca. > >>>> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate. But = it > >>>> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me that > >>>> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the at-spi > >>>> (cool). > >>>> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/ > >>>> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day. > >>>> So i read > >>>> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility > >>>> and > >>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility > >>>> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :). > >>>=20 > >>> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really > >>> exciting > >>=20 > >> to > >>=20 > >>> read. I hope we can quickly improve things. > >>>=20 > >>>> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for KDE). Tha= ts > >>>> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to Mentor > >>>> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation and fun > >>>>=20 > >>>> :). on my way to get touched with that. > >>>>=20 > >>>> So: > >>>> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort? > >>>=20 > >>> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I > >>=20 > >> cannot do > >>=20 > >>> this alone (neither time nor energy wise). > >>>=20 > >>>> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first > >>=20 > >> steps? > >>=20 > >>> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was generally bu= sy > >>> lately. > >>>=20 > >>>> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join? > >>>=20 > >>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planni= ng. > >>>=20 > >>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for co= de > >>> review. > >>>=20 > >>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility: > >>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/ > >>>=20 > >>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what = is > >>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things > >>=20 > >> that > >>=20 > >>> don't work. > >>>=20 > >>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention = :) > >>>=20 > >>> Cheers, > >>> Frederik > >>>=20 > >>>> cheers chrys