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List:       kde
Subject:    Re: Some serious things [was: Re: kwm-0.6 pl 3]
From:       Rick Jones <rickya () siservices ! net>
Date:       1997-05-12 21:11:41
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First off, I want to point out that I do appreciate the hard work put into
developing free software.  I am currently trying to learn to program
myself so I can jump in and do what I can do to help.

But I have to tell you that the attitude of the developers on this project
is really giving me an attitude.  I could understand if people were
posting nasty-grams about your work, but they're not.

I for one, don't expect to see these bells and whistles anytime soon.  I
make suggestions because if I were developing a package I'd rather have
the bells and whistles in the back of my mind so I can make mental notes
along the way instead of having to reverse things I did months prior to
add a new feature, thus making my WORKING package a buggy ALPHA package
all over again.

This isn't to say that making provisions along the way will insure that I
would have a perfect product when I actually implement the feature.  But
I'm sure it would mean fewer bugs and less code modifying in the end.
Making my job easier.

On Sat, 10 May 1997, Matthias Ettrich wrote:

> > BTW: Do you know that you are talking of an ALPHA piece of software that
> > is currently under fast development?! Let me first turn it into a WORKING
> > windowmanager and then talk about bells and whistles.  

I am aware of this.  Are you, and the other developers, aware that this is
listed as "for general discussion" on the KDE web site?  Granted features
are more on topic in look and feel than general, but we all know how a
thread can progress into a new topic.  A friendly nudge to the correct ml
is all that is really needed.

> > As long as there is still some basic functionality missing (sibling for example,
> > MWM hints are there since 0.6p4) and some applications made still problems,
> > I will pipe these feature requests a la "if you want kwm to succed" to 
> > /dev/null.

Basic functionality is defined by a persons experience and idea's.  For
example, I don't consider a pager basic functionality.  I think that if
you truely want to get the basics working first that a single desktop is
basic.  Don't you think virtual desktop is in the "bells and whistles"
catagory?

> > Anyway I don't mind some real help, but real help is more than talking.
> > In fact I start wondering wether a completly public development as we
> > try with the KDE is contra-productive ...

I would agree that it is counter-productive, IF you only want to reach
YOUR goal of what KDE should be, and sift through the suggestions for what
you think should/could be added in at a later date.  At which time a good
suggestion could be discarded simply because it would take a complete
re-coding to implement.

> I finally took a look into the sources, and yes: There was a bug with the
> sticky button.

Another "bells and whistles" item that goes hand-in-hand with virtual
desktops.

> But listen, here are the steps I would think everybody, who posts initially 
> on the KDE developer's mailinglists, should do at last, before claiming
> that "somebody removed the sticky button" :

I have to agree with you in that nobody on this list should assume
something has been removed.  This is ALPHA software.  But note that, as I
pointed out earlier, this is not the developers list.  People here are
just testing and talking about KDE.  We aren't all C++ guru's who can
write a patch.

> 1: install the new kwm release
> 2: oh, where is my sticky button?
> 3: hmm... could it be that somebody removed that functionality? no.
> 4: look into the .kwmrc: yes there is BBUTTON=OFF, hmm wasn't that STICKY?
> 5: set BBUTTON=STICKY and start kwm again.
> 6: hey, what's this, my sticky-button is still missing.
> 7: look again into the .kwmrc: there is BBUTTON=OFF, strange, seems like a bug.
> 8: check out with ABUTTON: strange this works, only BBUTTON causes trouble.
> 9: change directory to the kwm sources, grep Sticky, ah, it's in main.C
> 10: vi main.C and send the following patch to me or to the devel list:

I DO agree that anybody on this list should be able to do steps 1 - 8 and
then post to this list, the bug list, and possibly the developers list
that there is a bug.  But 9 and 10 aren't for everyone.

>       Hello, 
> 
>       I noticed the newest kwm has some problems with sticky and bbutton.
>       Here is a patch:
> 
> 
> -------cut here---------------------------
> --- main.C.orig	Fri May  9 17:51:58 1997
> +++ main.C	Fri May  9 17:52:08 1997
> @@ -126,7 +126,7 @@
>      BBUTTON = MINIMIZE;
>    else if( key == "Close" )
>      BBUTTON = CLOSE;
> -  else if( key == "Off" )
> +  else if( key == "Sticky" )
>      BBUTTON = STICKY;
>    else{
>      config->writeEntry("ButtonB","Off");
> -------cut here---------------------------
> 
>       Regards and keep up the good work,
> 
>          A subscriber and poster of the KDE mailing lists.

I plan to be doing this before long.  Using QT as a learning base was
recomended to me.  If you have a recomendation for a good online
crash-course I'd love to hear it.  The sooner I'm involved, the sooner I
can start pitching in with patches.

> If you think this is too difficult and nothing for you, ask yourself
> a few questions:
> 
>  1) Am i the ftp master of the KDE project?     
>  2) Do I write the documentation for some KDE applications?
>  3) Do I maintain KDE webpages?
>  4) Do I create KDE icons?
>  5) Am I on the kde list to answer questions of the developers, like
>      "Do you want it like this or that?" "Like this."
>  6) Am I just on the kde list to slow down the KDE development with
>     senseless feature requests and discussions that overfill the mailboxes 
>     of the developers like mailbombs?
> 
> If you answered the last point with yes, you should reconsider your decision.

I think my earlier comments apply to this as well.

> In fact I guess I'm almost the last kde developer who is still subscribed
> to the main kde list. And it's really not nice to find over 200 mails
> in the mailbox after beeing one day offline. Especially if most of the
> discussed stuff doesn't matter at all at the current state of the project.

I am subscribed to this list too.  I have never gotten that many posts
from this list.  This is one of the slowest lists I'm subscribed to.
Maybe 50 posts in 24 hours was the most I've ever gotten from this list.

> So I ask you all for more discipline. Please also consider the usenet for
> only-slightly-kde-related discussions.

You consider feature suggestions to be only-slightly-kde-related
discussions?

> Please note that we are doing a lot of work: for FUN! So you can help us 
> a lot by letting it be fun, not WORK. If somebody pays me for my coding, 
> he can ask for features everytime, even in an unfriendly manner, no problem.
> But not in my sparetime.

This sounds alot like you want kde to be what YOU want it to be and
could care less about what the public, by popular request, would like to
see implemented.  Surely not!

> Please also note that I really do not want to blame somebody personally.
> It is quite difficult to find the right words in a foreign language, so
> maybe the tone sounds a bit harder than it is meant.

Well, keep in mind that, in the translation, my tone, and others on this
list, may sound a bit harder than is meant.

> But like it is it is really hard for those doing the real work.

Does this statement mean that you feel that doing the real work means you
can stop listening to our suggestions and bi*ch-slap us at will?

I think you need to reconsider your idea of this list as well.

Keep in mind that I have been trying to get help from this list on a
compiling error for a week.  I sent an email to the developer and he never
graced me with his response, and you never bothered to help.  All I see on
this list from developers is bi*ching about us discussing features etc...
Or shooting down a patch that doesn't work right, although better than the
original.

So.  You tell me.  Why do you developers skip over MANY posts with
subjects like "PLEASE HELP kdelibs compiling error" but pick up and
respond to a posting you can bi*ch about?!?

--Rick

rickya@siservices.net

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