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List: ipng
Subject: Re: [IPv6] [EXTERNAL] Re: Terminology for IPv6 nodes
From: Tom Herbert <tom=40herbertland.com () dmarc ! ietf ! org>
Date: 2023-11-17 2:48:42
Message-ID: CALx6S36zZCkzXEik318T+3jr=zVms+v_dNzuacnyH25s4YjNXw () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 4:20 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 at 12:16, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 3:02 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think the real question is whether "host" and "router" are device
> >> roles or descriptions of types of devices, or are they functional
> >> descriptions of what actions are performed on packets and where.
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > That's one way to define them, but I think we need normative definitions
> with regards to protocol processing so we can use them in normative
> requirements. This is evident with regards to EH processing, like:
> >
> > * Routers only process Hop-by-Hop Options
> > * Hosts process all extension headers
> > * Intermediate destinations only process extension headers up to an
> including the routing header
> >
>
> RFC 8200 is clear on what EH processing occurs where.
>
> "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
> processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery
> path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,
> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
> of the IPv6 header."
>
Mark,
That doesn't cover the case of intermediate nodes. At an intermediate node
on EH through routing header are processed, EH following routing header are
not processed.
Tom
> If you want to encode deeper EH processing in the network, without
> using a packet's DA to signal that more processing, you're going to
> have to update RFC 8200 and many other architectural documents. You
> would also be declaring that encryption can't be present because that
> will prevent your "deep" packet processing.
> There is already a name for the types of devices that do what you're
> talking about:
>
> RFC3234, "Middleboxes: Taxonomy and Issues"
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
> > Tom
> >
> >>
> >> If you buy a laptop PC device (host), connect it to a wifi network and
> >> wired ethernet network using the built in network interfaces, enable
> >> forwarding between the interfaces in the operating system (sysctl in
> >> Linux, registry setting in Windows), and then run an OSPF process the
> >> laptop such that it participates in OSPF with other routers in the
> >> network, is that laptop a host or a router or both?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Mark.
> >>
> >> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 at 10:33, Templin (US), Fred L
> >> <Fred.L.Templin=40boeing.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I prefer the terminology "intermediate systems" and "end systems",
> but not all intermediate
> >> >
> >> > systems are "routers". All intermediate systems forward packets not
> addressed to themselves,
> >> >
> >> > but only intermediate systems that are also routers decrement the
> TTL/Hop Limit.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Fred
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tom Herbert
> >> > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 10:07 AM
> >> > To: Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>
> >> > Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>;
> 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>
> >> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [IPv6] Terminology for IPv6 nodes
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > EXT email: be mindful of links/attachments.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 7:31 AM Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On 16 Nov 2023, at 18:14, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > How about calling these "intermediate destinations"? That reflects
> that these have properties of both hosts and
> >> > > routers?
> >> >
> >> > Isn't that exactly the meaning of "intermediate node"?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ole,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Intermediate" reflects the router characteristics, "destination"
> reflects the host characteristics including that these are addressed by the
> Destination Address. "node" is generic and really doesn't convey any
> interesting information.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Tom
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> > Ole
> >> >
> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >> > ipv6@ietf.org
> >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >> ipv6@ietf.org
> >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 4:20 PM Mark Smith <<a \
href="mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Tom,<br> <br>
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 at 12:16, Tom Herbert <<a href="mailto:tom@herbertland.com" \
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">tom@herbertland.com</a>> \
wrote:<br> ><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 3:02 PM Mark Smith <<a \
href="mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> >><br>
>> I think the real question is whether "host" and "router" \
are device<br> >> roles or descriptions of types of devices, or are they \
functional<br> >> descriptions of what actions are performed on packets and \
where.<br> ><br>
><br>
> Mark,<br>
><br>
> That's one way to define them, but I think we need normative definitions \
with regards to protocol processing so we can use them in normative requirements. \
This is evident with regards to EH processing, like:<br> ><br>
> * Routers only process Hop-by-Hop Options<br>
> * Hosts process all extension headers<br>
> * Intermediate destinations only process extension headers up to an including \
the routing header<br> ><br>
<br>
RFC 8200 is clear on what EH processing occurs where.<br>
<br>
"Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not<br>
processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery<br>
path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,<br>
in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field<br>
of the IPv6 header."<br></blockquote></div></div><div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mark,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div \
dir="auto">That doesn't cover the case of intermediate nodes. At an intermediate \
node on EH through routing header are processed, EH following routing header are not \
processed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tom</div><div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br>
If you want to encode deeper EH processing in the network, without<br>
using a packet's DA to signal that more processing, you're going to<br>
have to update RFC 8200 and many other architectural documents. You<br>
would also be declaring that encryption can't be present because that<br>
will prevent your "deep" packet processing.</blockquote></div></div><div \
dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 \
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br>
There is already a name for the types of devices that do what you're<br>
talking about:<br>
<br>
RFC3234, "Middleboxes: Taxonomy and Issues"<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mark.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Tom<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> If you buy a laptop PC device (host), connect it to a wifi network and<br>
>> wired ethernet network using the built in network interfaces, enable<br>
>> forwarding between the interfaces in the operating system (sysctl in<br>
>> Linux, registry setting in Windows), and then run an OSPF process the<br>
>> laptop such that it participates in OSPF with other routers in the<br>
>> network, is that laptop a host or a router or both?<br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>> Mark.<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 at 10:33, Templin (US), Fred L<br>
>> <Fred.L.Templin=<a href="mailto:40boeing.com@dmarc.ietf.org" \
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">40boeing.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>> wrote:<br> >> ><br>
>> > I prefer the terminology "intermediate systems" and "end systems", but \
not all intermediate<br> >> ><br>
>> > systems are "routers". All intermediate systems forward packets not \
addressed to themselves,<br> >> ><br>
>> > but only intermediate systems that are also routers decrement the \
TTL/Hop Limit.<br> >> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Fred<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > From: ipv6 <<a href="mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" rel="noreferrer \
noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>> On Behalf Of Tom \
Herbert<br> >> > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 10:07 AM<br>
>> > To: Ole Trøan <<a href="mailto:otroan@employees.org" \
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>><br> >> > Cc: IPv6 List <<a \
href="mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a>>; Bob Hinden <<a \
href="mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>>; 6man Chairs <<a \
href="mailto:6man-chairs@ietf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">6man-chairs@ietf.org</a>><br> >> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] \
Re: [IPv6] Terminology for IPv6 nodes<br> >> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > EXT email: be mindful of links/attachments.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 7:31 AM Ole Trøan <<a \
href="mailto:otroan@employees.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>> wrote:<br> >> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > > On 16 Nov 2023, at 18:14, Tom Herbert <<a \
href="mailto:tom@herbertland.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">tom@herbertland.com</a>> wrote:<br> >> > ><br>
>> > > How about calling these "intermediate destinations"? \
That reflects that these have properties of both hosts and<br> >> > > \
routers?<br> >> ><br>
>> > Isn't that exactly the meaning of "intermediate node"?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Ole,<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > "Intermediate" reflects the router characteristics, \
"destination" reflects the host characteristics including that these are \
addressed by the Destination Address. "node" is generic and really \
doesn't convey any interesting information.<br> >> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Tom<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cheers<br>
>> > Ole<br>
>> ><br>
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br> >> > Administrative Requests: <a \
href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" rel="noreferrer noreferrer \
noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br> >> > \
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br> >><br>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br> >> Administrative Requests: <a \
href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" rel="noreferrer noreferrer \
noreferrer noreferrer" \
target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br> >> \
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</blockquote></div></div></div>
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