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Subject: Re: Questions about draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02
From: "Eric Vyncke \(evyncke\)" <evyncke=40cisco.com () dmarc ! ietf ! org>
Date: 2020-09-29 8:07:24
Message-ID: 216F154B-144F-41C8-9913-BC6C5E540996 () cisco ! com
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Robin,
About Linda's interesting questions about APN, I also wonder why using VLAN tagging \
as this tag will be lost quickly after a couple of hops while the IPv6 prefix will be \
kept (this is what DT Terastream did if not mistaken).
Else, I agree with you that Flow-Id should not be used as it is assumed to be opaque.
Still puzzled though about the ‘user' information as if the traffic is encrypted it \
is also often to hide the user identity.
Regards
-éric
From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 28 September 2020 at 19:33
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@futurewei.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, \
"draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org" \
<draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org>
Cc: "apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Questions about draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02
Hi Linda,
Please refer to my reply inline. APN mailing list is copied.
Best Regards,
Zhenbin (Robin)
From: Linda Dunbar [mailto:linda.dunbar@futurewei.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 2:23 AM
To: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org
Subject: Questions about draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02
Zhenbin, et al,
I have some questions on the draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02:
Page 5: App-aware Edge Device: This network device receives packets from IPv6 enabled \
applications and obtains the application characteristic information.
I am curious how does App-aware Edge Device derives the application characteristics \
information ? Your draft mentioned VLAN tagging, How VLAN tagging can provide \
Application characteristics information? [Robin] There are different ways for VLAN \
tagging to provide application characteristics information. Here I propose one \
example: the user hosts/apps can connect to the home gateway which can add different \
VLANs called S-VLAN to identify the different services. For example VLAN1 is used for \
Internet service and VLAN2 is used for IPTV service. The home gateway will connect to \
the DSLAM on which the VLAN call C-VLAN will be added to identify the home user. So \
when the IP-based edge network device receives the packet, it can derive the user ID \
and service type information from the VLAN tagging. We have explained that the APN \
work focuses on the limited domains rather than open Internet. The VLAN tagging shows \
that there is similar practice in the access network.
Page 6: Is the Application-aware ID another extension field? Or part of existing \
extension header? Like a subTLV within the Hop-by-hop options Header Type? [Robin] \
Application-aware ID is an option which can be used in DOH/HBH/SRH. It is part of \
existing extension headers. It can be seen as a type of TLV.
Questions about the Application-Aware ID structure in Figure 4:
Why not use IPv6 Header "Priority/Traffic class" field to represent the SLA Level?
[Robin] The design is to take integrity into account. That is, all the information \
can be obtained from the single Application-aware ID. Traditionally we can get \
different parts' information to compose some type of tuple. The process has effect on \
the forwarding performance and the scalability of forwarding entries.
Can you use IPv6 Header's "Flow Label" field to represent the App ID and Flow ID?
[Robin] Integrity is the same reason for the problem. In addition "flow label" will \
be used for ECMP. Reusing it may cause the compatibility issue.
How can network acquire the information about "USER" information? I would think most \
applications encrypt their user information. [Robin] The above example shows that \
C-VLAN can be used to acquire USER information. Though the application may encrypt \
their user information, not only APN needs the USER information, but also the \
carriers need to learn the USER information for accounting to get revenue. There \
already exists the possible way to solve the issue.
What kind of functions do you envision to be listed in the Figure 6's Function ID?
[Robin] Figure 6 is to reuse the SRv6 SID. The function ID means just the functions \
supported by the existing SRv6. The Application-aware ID is put into the arguments of \
the SRv6 SID. The function ID part will not have effect on the Application-aware ID.
[Robin] Thanks for your comments and questions. Now the draft is in the early phase. \
The usage of the Application-aware ID option can be further discussed.
Thank you very much.
Linda Dunbar
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Robin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">About Linda's interesting questions about \
APN, I also wonder why using VLAN tagging as this tag will be lost quickly after a \
couple of hops while the IPv6 prefix will be kept (this is what DT Terastream did if \
not mistaken).<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span \
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span \
lang="EN-US">Else, I agree with you that Flow-Id should not be used as it is assumed \
to be opaque.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span \
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span \
lang="EN-US">Still puzzled though about the ‘user' information as if the traffic is \
encrypted it is also often to hide the user identity.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid \
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: \
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">ipv6 \
<ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com><br> \
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 28 September 2020 at 19:33<br> <b>To: </b>Linda Dunbar \
<linda.dunbar@futurewei.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, \
"draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org" \
<draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org><br> <b>Cc: \
</b>"apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org><br> <b>Subject: </b>RE: Questions \
about draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Linda,</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Please refer to my reply inline. APN mailing \
list is copied.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Zhenbin (Robin)</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span \
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Linda Dunbar \
[mailto:linda.dunbar@futurewei.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 26, 2020 2:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; \
draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network@ietf.org<br> <b>Subject:</b> Questions about \
draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Zhenbin, et al, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I have some questions on the \
draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02:</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Page 5: App-aware \
Edge Device: This network device receives packets from IPv6 enabled applications and \
obtains the application characteristic information. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I am curious how does App-aware Edge \
Device derives the application characteristics information ? Your draft \
mentioned VLAN tagging, How VLAN tagging can provide Application characteristics \
information? </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] There are \
different ways for VLAN tagging to provide application characteristics information. \
Here I propose one example: the user hosts/apps can connect to the home gateway \
which can add different VLANs called S-VLAN to identify the different services. For \
example VLAN1 is used for Internet service and VLAN2 is used for IPTV service. The \
home gateway will connect to the DSLAM on which the VLAN call C-VLAN will be added \
to identify the home user. So when the IP-based edge network device receives the \
packet, it can derive the user ID and service type information from the VLAN tagging. \
We have explained that the APN work focuses on the limited domains rather than open \
Internet. The VLAN tagging shows that there is similar practice in the access \
network. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Page 6: Is the Application-aware ID \
another extension field? Or part of existing extension header? Like a subTLV within \
the Hop-by-hop options Header Type?</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] \
Application-aware ID is an option which can be used in DOH/HBH/SRH. It is part of \
existing extension headers. It can be seen as a type of TLV. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Questions about the \
Application-Aware ID structure in Figure 4:</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Why not use IPv6 \
Header "Priority/Traffic class" field to represent the SLA Level? \
</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] The design is to take integrity into \
account. That is, all the information can be obtained from the single \
Application-aware ID. Traditionally we can get different parts' information to \
compose some type of tuple. The process has effect on the forwarding performance and \
the scalability of forwarding entries. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Can you use IPv6 \
Header's "Flow Label" field to represent the App ID and Flow ID? \
</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] Integrity is the same reason for the \
problem. In addition "flow label" will be used for ECMP. Reusing it may cause the \
compatibility issue. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">How can network \
acquire the information about "USER" information? I would think most applications \
encrypt their user information. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] The above example shows that C-VLAN can be used to \
acquire USER information. Though the application may encrypt their user information, \
not only APN needs the USER information, but also the carriers need to learn the \
USER information for accounting to get revenue. There already exists the possible way \
to solve the issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">What kind of \
functions do you envision to be listed in the Figure 6's Function ID? \
</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">[Robin] Figure 6 is to reuse the SRv6 SID. The \
function ID means just the functions supported by the existing SRv6. The \
Application-aware ID is put into the arguments of the SRv6 SID. The function ID part \
will not have effect on the Application-aware ID.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" \
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">[Robin] Thanks for your comments and \
questions. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Now the draft is in the \
early phase. The usage of the Application-aware ID option can be further discussed. \
</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thank you very much. \
</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span \
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Linda Dunbar</span><o:p></o:p></p> \
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