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List: illumos-developer
Subject: Re: [developer] GRUB modifications for Illumos
From: "Toomas Soome" <tsoome () me ! com>
Date: 2016-08-25 8:27:34
Message-ID: 47DBCE98-663B-4281-B2AA-0944257B9FC9 () me ! com
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> On 25. aug 2016, at 11:16, Denys Rtveliashvili <denys@rtveliashvili.name> wrote:
>
> I understand that the OS integration is what is most difficult.
>
> What I see is that GRUB in Illumos cannot boot on EFI systems and on BIOS systems \
> gets fatally confused by disks with 4K sector size. Porting EFI support from GRUB2 \
> to the old GRUB is hard and pointless job. Making anything understand disks with \
> sector sizes different to 512 bytes in BIOS mode is likely impossible.
> I like that FreeBSD loader is not dying during the boot and should work in EFI mode \
> so that is good for sure. I guess it is the most straightforward way to go when \
> booting Illumos. How close it is to being used for OI / SmartOS / OmniOS?
>
> As for GRUB2, it can boot Linux on ZFS Pools but the OS integration is very basic. \
> I did not spot anything like boot environments, for instance. Also, upgrading ZFS \
> module on a Linux system which uses ZFS for its root file system is impossible at \
> the moment I think.
> Regards,
> Denys Rtveliashvili
Loader project is currently in process of reviews, planning already for step-by-step \
integration. Obviously the process is quite a bit more complex than just "throw it in \
and watch what will happen" as for distros it will also take time to update \
installers etc, also the distros have their own schedules and development plans, so \
it is impossible to tell for sure when exactly one or another is fully production \
ready, or even available for preview. But the work is going on:)
rgds,
toomas
>
> >
> >
> > yarr. well, as boot loader as such is standalone application, its not really hard \
> > to write basic one from scratch (getting fairly good one will take time and \
> > effort obviously), but for basic read kernel into the memory, set up the machine \
> > and jump to kernel — you really don't need much, every comp-sci graduate should \
> > be able to do that;)
> > the real devil actually is OS integration, and thats something grub2 is not \
> > making easy (not even on linux, which is by far the primary target for grub2 \
> > anyhow). if you can find the openindiana channel log, we did chat about it a bit \
> > before we did realize you are gone already;)
> > Anyhow, Garrett already did point out the key bits, some are a bit arguable in \
> > extent - with any software at the end of the day its all about the devs willing \
> > to work on it, but yes, after I did spend quite some time on grub2 (because it is \
> > most feature rich no argument there), I did not find any reasonable way to reduce \
> > the complexity and keep options open to bring in updates from upstream. So I did \
> > end up looking for alternatives…
> > rgds,
> > toomas
> >
> >
> > > On 24. aug 2016, at 23:26, Garrett D'Amore <garrett@damore.org \
> > > <mailto:garrett@damore.org>> wrote:
> > > It would not be "easy" to port Grub2 to illumos — the Solaris engineering \
> > > team at Oracle worked on it for a long time before they finished, and \
> > > unfortunately the changes included modifications to closed source code within \
> > > Solaris.
> > > The FreeBSD bootloader project is preferable in many ways — licensing, \
> > > current progress, and better support for ZFS. Just please be patient — \
> > > admittedly I've not spent any of the time I would have liked to have on \
> > > reviewing Toomas' work. (In my defense I'm no longer paid to work on illumos \
> > > projects.)
> > > - Garrett
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Alex Wilson <alex@cooperi.net \
> > > <mailto:alex@cooperi.net>> wrote: On 8/24/16 12:58 PM, Denys Rtveliashvili \
> > > wrote:
> > > > I wonder if it is reasonably easy to port GRUB modifications which were
> > > > done to support Illumos in GRUB2.
> > >
> > > GRUB2 is basically a from-scratch rewrite of GRUB with no code in common
> > > with the earlier GRUB releases. So "porting" the changes is not really
> > > possible. This is a big part of why the grub-0.97 derived code in
> > > illumos has not re-synced with upstream particularly at all and has
> > > instead diverged. We haven't bothered to maintain it as a separate set
> > > of patches, because the upstream is not being updated any more anyway.
> > >
> > > The path forwards for illumos, IMHO, is Toomas' FreeBSD bootloader work,
> > > not anything with GRUB2.
> > >
> >
>
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[Attachment #3 (unknown)]
<html><html><html><head><meta content="text/html charset=utf-8" \
http-equiv="Content-Type" /></head><body class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; \
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class="" \
/><div><blockquote class="" type="cite"><div class="">On 25. aug 2016, at 11:16, \
Denys Rtveliashvili <<a class="" \
href="mailto:denys@rtveliashvili.name">denys@rtveliashvili.name</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /><div class=""><meta class="" \
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" /><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" \
class="" text="#000000"> I understand that the OS integration is what is most \
difficult.<br class="" /><br class="" /> What I see is that GRUB in Illumos cannot \
boot on EFI systems and on BIOS systems gets fatally confused by disks with 4K \
sector size.<br class="" /> Porting EFI support from GRUB2 to the old GRUB is hard \
and pointless job.<br class="" />
Making anything understand disks with sector sizes different to 512
bytes in BIOS mode is likely impossible.<br class="" /><br class="" />
I like that FreeBSD loader is not dying during the boot and should
work in EFI mode so that is good for sure. I guess it is the most
straightforward way to go when booting Illumos.<br class="" />
How close it is to being used for OI / SmartOS / OmniOS?<br class="" /><br \
class="" /> As for GRUB2, it can boot Linux on ZFS Pools but the OS integration
is very basic. I did not spot anything like boot environments, for
instance. Also, upgrading ZFS module on a Linux system which uses
ZFS for its root file system is impossible at the moment I think.<br class="" \
/><br class="" /> Regards,<br class="" />
Denys Rtveliashvili<br class="" /></div></div></blockquote><div><br class="" \
/></div><div>Loader project is currently in process of reviews, planning already for \
step-by-step integration. Obviously the process is quite a bit more complex than just \
“throw it in and watch what will happen” as for distros it will also take \
time to update installers etc, also the distros have their own schedules and \
development plans, so it is impossible to tell for sure when exactly one or another \
is fully production ready, or even available for preview. But the work is going \
on:)</div><div><br class="" /></div><div>rgds,</div><div>toomas</div><br class="" \
/><blockquote class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="" \
text="#000000"><br class="" /><blockquote \
cite="mid:WM!9b4be5826e16f40323797976192ef9da63033b4e65b893ce70f5652ae534f317c75b6f865633f41aa099171c2efa793a!@mailstronghold-2.zmailcloud.com" \
class="" type="cite"><meta class="" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" \
http-equiv="Content-Type" /><div class=""><br class="" /></div><div class=""><br \
class="" /></div><div class="">yarr. well, as boot loader as such is standalone \
application, its not really hard to write basic one from scratch (getting fairly \
good one will take time and effort obviously), but for basic read kernel into the \
memory, set up the machine
and jump to kernel — you really don’t need much, every comp-sci
graduate should be able to do that;)</div><div class=""><br class="" \
/></div><div class="">the real devil actually is OS integration, and thats something \
grub2 is not making easy (not even on linux, which is by far the primary target for \
grub2 anyhow). if you can find the openindiana channel log, we did chat about it a \
bit before we
did realize you are gone already;)</div><div class=""><br class="" \
/></div><div class="">Anyhow, Garrett already did point out the key bits, some are a \
bit arguable in extent - with any software at the end of the day its all about the \
devs willing to work on it, but yes, after I did spend quite some time on grub2 \
(because it is most feature rich no argument there), I did not find any
reasonable way to reduce the complexity and keep options open to
bring in updates from upstream. So I did end up looking for
alternatives…</div><div class=""><br class="" /></div><div \
class="">rgds,</div><div class="">toomas</div><div class=""><br class="" /></div><br \
class="" /><div class=""><blockquote class="" type="cite"><div class="">On 24. aug \
2016, at 23:26, Garrett D'Amore <<a class="" href="mailto:garrett@damore.org" \
moz-do-not-send="true">garrett@damore.org</a>>
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /><div class=""><div \
class="" dir="ltr">It would not be “easy” to port Grub2
to illumos — the Solaris engineering team at Oracle worked
on it for a long time before they finished, and
unfortunately the changes included modifications to closed
source code within Solaris.
<div class=""><br class="" /></div><div class="">The FreeBSD bootloader \
project is preferable
in many ways — licensing, current progress, and better
support for ZFS. Just please be patient — admittedly
I’ve not spent any of the time I would have liked to
have on reviewing Toomas’ work. (In my defense I’m \
no longer paid to work on illumos projects.)</div><div class=""><br class="" \
/></div><div class=""> - Garrett</div><div class=""><br class="" \
/></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class="" /><div class="gmail_quote">On \
Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Alex Wilson <span class="" dir="ltr"><<a class="" \
href="mailto:alex@cooperi.net" moz-do-not-send="true" \
target="_blank">alex@cooperi.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="" /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 \
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On \
8/24/16 12:58 PM, Denys Rtveliashvili wrote:<br class="" />
> I wonder if it is reasonably easy to port GRUB
modifications which were<br class="" />
> done to support Illumos in GRUB2.<br class="" /><br class="" \
/></span>GRUB2 is basically a from-scratch rewrite of GRUB with no code in common<br \
class="" />
with the earlier GRUB releases. So "porting" the
changes is not really<br class="" />
possible. This is a big part of why the grub-0.97
derived code in<br class="" />
illumos has not re-synced with upstream particularly
at all and has<br class="" />
instead diverged. We haven't bothered to maintain it
as a separate set<br class="" />
of patches, because the upstream is not being updated
any more anyway.<br class="" /><br class="" />
The path forwards for illumos, IMHO, is Toomas'
FreeBSD bootloader work,<br class="" />
not anything with GRUB2.<br class="" /><br class="" /><br class="" \
/>
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