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List: hpux-admin
Subject: [HPADM] RE: Re: QUERY: Time for a Change in Charter?
From: "Ahmed, Nabeel" <Nabeel_Ahmed () bose ! com>
Date: 2001-01-31 17:42:22
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Soon as I saw the beginning of this thread today morning, I realized it was
going to be one of 'those' days. :-)
Someone I know has a motto 'Dont fix whats not broken' and he does pretty
well by it. Me personally, I like to tinker around break things and then try
to put them back.
But in a public forum like this, I think my friends motto makes sense.
So, right now we need to figure out if somethings broken? I think not, if I
ever want a summary which has not been posted, I send a polite mail to the
original poster asking for a summary, and guess what, no ones ever refused
one.
It may help if you remind the person who posts the question to post a
summary when you send a reply to him/her. And I think that all it would
take.
As for people taking advantage of this list as a free technical support, I
dont think theres any harm in that, if I know something, I dont mind
sharing. If I didnt have time, I wouldnt share anyways. And remember the
guru, Bill Hassell, replies to almost every question. He uses his time
wisely, and he never never gets involved in these threads :), so neither
does he think of it as people leeching off, after all he should be the first
person to think that, since his company is the one losing revenue if that
were true, nor does he ever complain about the time that it takes for him to
send those replies. And now I notice that the Guru is active on the ITRC
forums too. Basically, what it takes is an attitude to help people, without
judging them.
Just my $.02
And lets see how many people are happy about this disussion/analysis thread.
So please please please, leave the list as is, and posters please post
summaries.
Mailbox open for flames now.
Thanks,
Nabeel
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Turner [mailto:jturner@hertz.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:11 PM
To: hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl
Subject: [HPADM] Re: QUERY: Time for a Change in Charter? was Re:
SUMMARY: Ignite problem with tftp
I vote to stick with Questions/Summaries only. (So here I am replying to
the
list ;-)
Have you guys really seen the other lists like Sun and AIX? Their
"signal-to-noise" ratio is complete crap. Everybody chimes in with their
"me
too" posts. It takes forever to actually find a legitimate answer to a
question
that someone else posted. Furthermore, you still don't know if *any* of the
posted answers actually *fixed* the original poster's problem unless the
original poster puts out a summary.
Think about the volume of HPADM posts you get in a 24-hour period. Now
think
about that volume increasing 20-, 50-, or even 100- fold. Is that really
how
you want to spend your day?
Formulate a good, concise query. Collect replies privately. Post a
clarification if warranted. Always post a summary -- a *real* summary and
not
some "thanks, that fixed it" BS.
It's so simple and has worked so well for so long. Please don't mess it up.
Respectfully,
Jim
John Backus <john@beechglen.com> on 01/31/2001 10:41:42 AM
To: R P Herrold <herrold@owlriver.com>, Daniel Lee
<lee_daniel@altavista.com>
cc: hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl(bcc: Jim
Turner/MIS/OKC/Hertz)
Subject [HPADM] Re: QUERY: Time for a Change in
: Charter? was Re: SUMMARY: Ignite problem with
tftp
Russ wrote:
> Is it time to reconsider the list charter? Should Discussion
> and Analysis be added as appropiate response categories?
Yes, in my opinion.
The current policy is an attempt to assure accurate and concise responses to
questions. I think that the question/summary format is lacking key
usefulness when compared to the discussion/analysis format.
The basis for my opinion is gleaned from my experience with this list and
other lists, and additionally, my experience in helping people with
technical support issues.
One of the keys in helping people is coming to an understanding of the true
need (problem). Along the way to concluding a support call (the summary),
the original question (problem definition) often changes. In the process of
discovery (ascertaining the actual need), other facets and tangents of the
problem and ultimately other facets and tangents of the solution are found.
The summary of a support call is very critical and it is also very
subjective. Unless the information is quoted, how do you know that what you
are reading has not been filtered incorrectly?
The real loss, I believe, is that which comes in the discovery phase of
problem resolution. Spontaneity and creativity is stifled. When someone
posts privately their 2 cents worth, do YOU get to see that 2 cents? Their
2 cents may not been worth anything to the original poster or to 70% of the
list, but to the other 30%, it may be a key idea or an inspiration worth a ?
dollars.
There are other pros and there are cons to the discussion/analysis approach,
but I believe that the good aspects of the discussion/analysis approach to
listservers outweigh the bad ones.
John Backus
beechglen.com
(513) 922-0509
--
---> Please post QUESTIONS and SUMMARIES only!! <---
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--
---> Please post QUESTIONS and SUMMARIES only!! <---
To subscribe/unsubscribe to this list, contact
majordomo@dutchworks.nl
Name: hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl Owner:
owner-hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl
Archives: ftp.dutchworks.nl/pub/digests/hpux-admin (FTP, browse
only)
http://www.dutchworks.nl/htbin/hpsysadmin (Web, browse &
search)
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<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>RE: [HPADM] Re: QUERY: Time for a Change in Charter? </TITLE>
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<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Soon as I saw the beginning of this thread today morning, I realized \
it was going to be one of 'those' days. :-)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Someone I know has a motto 'Dont fix whats not broken' and he does \
pretty well by it. Me personally, I like to tinker around break things and then try \
to put them back.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>But in a public forum like this, I think my friends motto makes \
sense.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>So, right now we need to figure out if somethings \
broken? I think not, if I ever want a summary which has not been posted, I send a \
polite mail to the original poster asking for a summary, and guess what, no ones ever \
refused one. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>It may help if you remind the person who posts the question to post a \
summary when you send a reply to him/her. And I think that all it would take. \
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>As for people taking advantage of this list as a free technical \
support, I dont think theres any harm in that, if I know something, I dont mind \
sharing. If I didnt have time, I wouldnt share anyways. And remember the guru, Bill \
Hassell, replies to almost every question. He uses his time wisely, and he never \
never gets involved in these threads :), so neither does he think of it as people \
leeching off, after all he should be the first person to think that, since his \
company is the one losing revenue if that were true, nor does he ever complain about \
the time that it takes for him to send those replies. And now I notice that the Guru \
is active on the ITRC forums too. Basically, what it takes is an attitude to help \
people, without judging them.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Just my $.02</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>And lets see how many people are happy about this disussion/analysis \
thread.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>So please please please, leave the list as is, and posters please \
post summaries.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Mailbox open for flames now.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Nabeel</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Jim Turner [<A \
HREF="mailto:jturner@hertz.com">mailto:jturner@hertz.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2>Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:11 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: \
hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: [HPADM] Re: QUERY: Time for \
a Change in Charter? was Re:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>SUMMARY: Ignite problem with \
tftp</FONT> </P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>I vote to stick with Questions/Summaries only. (So here I am \
replying to the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>list ;-)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Have you guys really seen the other lists like Sun and AIX? \
Their</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>"signal-to-noise" ratio is complete \
crap. Everybody chimes in with their "me</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>too" \
posts. It takes forever to actually find a legitimate answer to a \
question</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>that someone else posted. Furthermore, you \
still don't know if *any* of the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>posted answers actually \
*fixed* the original poster's problem unless the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>original \
poster puts out a summary.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Think about the volume of HPADM posts you get in a 24-hour \
period. Now think</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>about that volume increasing 20-, \
50-, or even 100- fold. Is that really how</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>you want to \
spend your day?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Formulate a good, concise query. Collect replies \
privately. Post a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>clarification if warranted. \
Always post a summary -- a *real* summary and not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>some \
"thanks, that fixed it" BS.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>It's so simple and has worked so well for so long. Please don't \
mess it up.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Respectfully,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Jim</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>John Backus <john@beechglen.com> on 01/31/2001 10:41:42 \
AM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>   \
; & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
To: R P Herrold \
<herrold@owlriver.com>, Daniel Lee </FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> \
<lee_daniel@altavista.com> \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
cc: \
hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl(bcc: \
Jim \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
Turner/MIS/OKC/Hertz)   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> Subject [HPADM] Re: \
QUERY: Time for a Change in </FONT> \
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
: Charter? was Re: \
SUMMARY: Ignite problem with </FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> \
tftp &nbs \
p; \
\
</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> & \
nbsp; &nb \
sp;   \
; \
</FONT> </P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Russ wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Is it time to reconsider the list charter? Should \
Discussion</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and Analysis be added as appropiate response \
categories?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, in my opinion.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The current policy is an attempt to assure accurate and concise \
responses to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>questions. I think that the \
question/summary format is lacking key</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>usefulness when \
compared to the discussion/analysis format.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The basis for my opinion is gleaned from my experience with this list \
and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>other lists, and additionally, my experience in helping \
people with</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>technical support issues.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>One of the keys in helping people is coming to an understanding of \
the true</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>need (problem). Along the way to concluding a \
support call (the summary),</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the original question (problem \
definition) often changes. In the process of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>discovery \
(ascertaining the actual need), other facets and tangents of the</FONT> \
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>problem and ultimately other facets and tangents of the solution are \
found.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>The summary of a support call is very critical and it \
is also very</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>subjective. Unless the information is \
quoted, how do you know that what you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>are reading has not \
been filtered incorrectly?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The real loss, I believe, is that which comes in the discovery phase \
of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>problem resolution. Spontaneity and creativity is \
stifled. When someone</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>posts privately their 2 cents \
worth, do YOU get to see that 2 cents? Their</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>2 cents \
may not been worth anything to the original poster or to 70% of the</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2>list, but to the other 30%, it may be a key idea or an inspiration worth a \
?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>dollars.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>There are other pros and there are cons to the discussion/analysis \
approach,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>but I believe that the good aspects of the \
discussion/analysis approach to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>listservers outweigh the bad \
ones.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>John Backus</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>beechglen.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>(513) 922-0509</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
---> Please post QUESTIONS and SUMMARIES only!! <---</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> To subscribe/unsubscribe to this \
list, contact majordomo@dutchworks.nl</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> Name: \
hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl Owner: \
owner-hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> Archives: \
ftp.dutchworks.nl/pub/digests/hpux-admin (FTP, \
browse only)</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> <A \
HREF="http://www.dutchworks.nl/htbin/hpsysadmin" \
TARGET="_blank">http://www.dutchworks.nl/htbin/hpsysadmin</A> (Web, \
browse & search)</FONT> </P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> \
---> Please post QUESTIONS and SUMMARIES only!! <---</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> To subscribe/unsubscribe to this \
list, contact majordomo@dutchworks.nl</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> Name: \
hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl Owner: \
owner-hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Archives: \
ftp.dutchworks.nl/pub/digests/hpux-admin (FTP, \
browse only)</FONT> <BR><FONT \
SIZE=2> <A \
HREF="http://www.dutchworks.nl/htbin/hpsysadmin" \
TARGET="_blank">http://www.dutchworks.nl/htbin/hpsysadmin</A> (Web, \
browse & search)</FONT> </P>
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---> Please post QUESTIONS and SUMMARIES only!! <---
To subscribe/unsubscribe to this list, contact majordomo@dutchworks.nl
Name: hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl Owner: owner-hpux-admin@dutchworks.nl
Archives: ftp.dutchworks.nl/pub/digests/hpux-admin (FTP, browse only)
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