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List:       hpux-admin
Subject:    [HPADM] SUMMARY Workgroup Server Recommendations
From:       Kevin Davisson <kdavis () woodward ! com>
Date:       1999-05-28 22:14:02
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Thanks to :
Raymond Fagnon, Joseph Goncheroski, Brian Baldridge, Tom Myers, Timothy
Moyer, Robert Stutes,   Volker T. Mueller, Graham Donaldson, Stuart
Whitby,Paul Van Westerlaak

For taking the time to respond.  I should point out that I'm investigating
options for budget planning (FY00), so I'm really looking at PC's as a
fallback position to offer management.  Several people have pointed out that
a 735/99 "will" run HP-UX 11.0 (they're not dead yet!).  My bigger concern
is that if it's not supported by HP, the application vendors have an easy
out if (when) their app will not run under that configuration.  The machines
have to go - it's just a matter of how soon.  Network bandwidth is certainly
an issue - preliminary testing using the current shared 10MB network is
painfully slow.  Network upgrade to 100MB switched will be complete in 6
months.  Server suggestions ranged from a half dozen PC's sharing a J5000,
to checking out a new N-class.  Running the apps using the native WinDoze95
version is an option I don't want to have to support.  There were several
suggestions to use Linux, which is fine, except that then I lose any
advantage I would have gained by letting the IT weenies support the PC's!

The math worked out pretty simple - by the time you figure in enough HP
horsepower to service the PC Exceed sessions, the total cost is comparable
to just replacing all the workstations with newer boxes.  Time to get my HP
rep working on a deal....

ORIGINAL POSTING :
Admins,
  In my environment of 110 HP 9000 workstations I've got about 35 that are
735/99's.  They're old and slow, graphics performance isn't great, and now
I've been told they won't run 11.X.  OK, so I'll budget to replace them next
year.  The users are all Manufacturing Engineers running CoCreate ME10
(drafting package), WorkManager (PDM), Netscape/Acrobat (web viewing of
documents), and WINDD (for PC applications and e-mail).  At $7K a pop for
B180L's (using PowerUp rebates) I'm looking at a quarter million dollars -
which doesn't make management too happy.  Now they think they would rather
replace them all with $3K windoze95 boxes, and use Exceed to run the CAD
apps from an HP server.

Anyone out there gone down this road?  Pro's/Con's?  If this is a viable
solution, what would you suggest for a server  to service 35 concurrent
CDE/CAD sessions (A-class, R-class, D-class???)

TIAWS

Kevin M. Davisson
Woodward Aircraft Engine Systems

RESPONSES :

kevin:

we cold loaded (had problems with the update) 11.0 on our 735 and it seems
to be running fine.
there may be some problems with graphics cards on 735's running 11.0 ---
does not affect us.
i understand 11.0 on the 735 is not officially supported by hp.

... goncheroski

This will be a HUGE network hit. If you have the infrastructure, fine. If
not, you will come to a screeching halt. We have been faced with a similar
situation. Luckily our app (PTC's Pro/ENGINEER) comes in a WinNT version. We
have decided to replace our machines with IBM Intellistation ZPro's (abou
$9200) and run an HP K380 for file services.

Good Luck, Brian
=================================

First off, I would suggest C3000 workstations instead of B180L.  They have
PA-8500 processors and are 64-bit capable and will be upgradable to IA-64
processors when(if) they are available.  With 450MHz processors, they are at
least 3 times faster than the B180L, which makes them a much better buy from
a price/performance standpoint.

If management still wants to pinch pennies, I would suggest a compromise of
replacing 5 to 7 735/99 systems with one J5000 (dual processor 450MHz
PA-8500) and 4 to 6 Pentium/Celeron/K6-2 machines and look into Linux.
With twice the CPU power of the C3000, a J5000 should easily support 5 to 7
medium to heavy CAD users.

The X-Free86 X-windows software for Linux is superior in performance and
stability to eXceed under Win95 and you won't have the headache of
maintaining seperate Unix and NT logins and passwords.  You may even find
that some of your applications, such as Acrobat and Netscape, run just fine
under Linux.  I haven't seen a WinFrame client for Linux so WinDD support
may be a problem.  Of course, WinDD is a dead-end product and you'll have to
switch to MS-TerminalServer on the NT servers anyway.  With all the major
vendors ramping up Linux support (even HP!) I would expect to see Citrix
offering a WinFrame client for Linux.

					Cheers, Tom
--
You might want to look in the N Class arena
Tim

Normally I wouldn't recommend this for desktop systems, but
...

Since it appears that you are dealing with a technically
competent user community and management wants to save money,
have you considered using intel machines running GNU/Linux?

Some advantages are:

1) You will be able to maintain Unix to Unix connectivity
(with better compliance with accepted standards ... no
danger of Microsoft attempting to change the rules in the
middle of the game).

2) The window managers (and there are several to choose
from, most of them free) are quite stable.  If you prefer a
$upported window manager, commercial versions of MOTIF and
CDE are available for GNU/Linux.

3) If a bug in the OS is detected, you can get it resolved
faster than you would through Microsoft (have you noticed
how long it takes for Microsoft to release Service Packs?)

4) If you prefer, you can get paid technical support
contracts for GNU/Linux through several companies (RedHat is
only one of a number offering contract support services).

5) The cost of the OS license beats anything Microsoft can
offer (even if you go the commercial distribution route I.E.
RedHat)

6) Several PC vendors (such as Dell, IBM, and Compaq) are
now (or soon will be) offering GNU/Linux as an alternative
OS for installation on new systems.  You can now buy a PC
with GNU/Linux installed and ready to go when the machine
arrives.

7) Netscape Communicator is available on GNU/Linux

8) So is the Acrobat Reader

some con's:

1) No direct support for running PC app's under GNU/Linux. 
BUT, keep an eye on what is happening with the VMware
product (http://www.vmware.com)

2) You will still need a central server for your CAD and
other applications.  Concerning what class server to use,
unfortunately, My experience has been limited to T series
Enterprise Servers (that's what we have been using here for
6 years in our production environment supporting customer
service and order entry processes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 don't know about any upcoming releases > 11.0 but 11.0 will definetely
run on a 735/99.

rgds,
  Volker T. Mueller      

I haven't been down this road, but the first thing that comes to mind is
that if you dont think Graphics performance is great on your 735's, then I
would expect them to be worse on an X-emulation session.  I use XWinPro on a
350Mhz PII PC, and for X, performance doesnt keep up with even a luke warm
workstation, I suppose this is because on the PC, your running a GUI, on top
of another (windows) GUI.  

Network bandwidth might also become a problem if you're running on a 10mb
network cos all those users will generate plenty of X-traffic.  If the
processor usage of a single 735 is consistently high during your CAD work,
perhaps you'll need a pretty powerful server box too.

As I mentioned though, i've not been down this road, so perhaps people with
real experience of running a CAD environment can advise better.

Regards,
	Graham 

I've gone down the road, but never with clear directions.  We went
from X-terms and workstations to WinNT/Exceed machines.  It was 
pretty painless really since we were told that we wouldn't be
replacing the servers :)   No performance calculations to mess 
about with, so I can't help you there.

Pros:

Less administration hassle
Users have their own PC (is this a good thing?)
Cost appears lower.

Cons:

Less administration
Heavier network traffic (You'll have to watch for this)
Virus protection becomes an issue
Users think they know what they're doing with PC's - they customise 
  them, play about on them, then wonder why they break.
PC reliability
Backups are more awkward, unless you run everything off servers

As you can probably tell, I'm not a great fan of PCs.  They're good
for playing games on, but I'm not convinced they're much good for
anything else.  They're toys, and as such, people play on them. 
For serious work, get serious workstations.

Actually, have you looked into getting Sun Ultra 5s?  They'll work
out around the same cost as your PCs, I reckon.

Cheers,

Stu.

Although we don't have as much systems as you have (about 10 workstations
(HP and SUN) and 10 X-terminals (HP)) we face the same problem. We are
replacing these with WindowsNT systems using Reflection-X as X server.
This is OK for replacing X-terminals for users who only have to use X
occasionally. They can combine office applications and X-applications very
easy, but heavy UNIX users want to keep their workstations and use a
seperate PC for things like Lotus Notes.

Another thing you have to consider is system administration for
Windows(NT). This isn't trivial. I don't think the folks who say that UNIX
administration is difficult and Windows(NT) administration is easy know
what they are talking about! Installation, configuration and
troubleshooting is a pain on NT. And remember: no real remote
administration.

I'm rather unimpressed by WindowsNT: it doesn't crash as often as
Windows3.11/95 (just once in the last 6 months) but the speed, even when
using a 350 MHz Pentium II with 64 MB Ram is unimpressive. Maybe expanding
the memory to 128 MB may help. Booting takes forever (and the thing has to
be booted about 20 times when installing end every time you make a trivial
change in te system setup). Every system related thing must be configured
as "administrator" and you can't, as an ordinary user, do a "su" but have
to log out, log in as admin, log out and log in as the user to test the
stuff. In short: a braindead excuse fo an operating system.

As an alternative I'm evaluating Linux (RedHat 6.0) as a low cost
workstation/X-terminal and this works like a charm on the same PC (using a
dual boot setup). We recently installed a WindowsNT TSE terminal server
that I can use on Linux. This gives me a X window with full Windows NT for
using MS-Office and Lotus Notes.
Administration is simple UNIX :-) and all remote access things are
available.
As you have UNIX experience going the Linux way is worth considering.

As for the server side: the bigger the better I would think. If you going
to use Linux, you can spend the money you save on the Microsoft stuff on
your server :-)

Cheers

P.S. Maybe I went a bit overboard with the Windows bashing, but the whole
NT thing has cost me too much admin time in the last months. The only thing
I really miss on Linux is Visio, but I can use that on the terminal server.



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