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List:       haskell-cafe
Subject:    Re: [Haskell-cafe] Monad of no `return` Proposal (MRP): Moving `return` out of `Monad`
From:       Mike Meyer <mwm () mired ! org>
Date:       2015-10-07 23:39:19
Message-ID: CAD=7U2CnbZHGmErQs7c34mEky4gP7E81YVyASE2Zk1HeNv8OQw () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 6:05 PM Brandon Allbery <allbery.b@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Bardur Arantsson <spam@scientician.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Please consider that the the way practical development really happens[2]
>
> ...among web developers, who of course are the only real developers?
> [...]
> I had heard that the financial users generally refused to have anything to
> do with the Haskell community.
> Now I know why.
>

I'm curious - do "practical" developers really feel like they have to rush
out and update their tool chain whenever a new version of part of it comes
out? Most of the projects I've worked on considered the language version as
a fixed part of the technology stack, and almost never updated it. Even
when using Python, which valued not breaking working code more than it's
own zen. But changing anything that potentially affected all the code in a
working project was pretty much never done, and always involved a lot of
effort.

So the worst headache I got from language evolution was from trying to
remember which set of features I had available for each project. No, that's
second - the biggest one was from arguments about when we should adopt a
new version. But breaking working code pretty much didn't happen.

[Attachment #5 (text/html)]

<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 6:05 PM \
Brandon Allbery &lt;<a href="mailto:allbery.b@gmail.com">allbery.b@gmail.com</a>&gt; \
wrote:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px \
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div \
class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Bardur Arantsson <span \
dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:spam@scientician.net" \
target="_blank">spam@scientician.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Please \
consider that the the way practical development really \
happens[2]</blockquote></div>...among web developers, who of course are the only real \
developers?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_extra">[...]</div><div \
class="gmail_extra">I had heard that the financial users generally refused to have \
anything to do with the Haskell community.</div><div class="gmail_extra">Now I know \
why.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m curious - do \
&quot;practical&quot; developers really feel like they have to rush out and update \
their tool chain whenever a new version of part of it comes out? Most of the projects \
I&#39;ve worked on considered the language version as a fixed part of the technology \
stack, and almost never updated it. Even when using Python, which valued not breaking \
working code more than it&#39;s own zen. But changing anything that potentially \
affected all the code in a working project was pretty much never done, and always \
involved a lot of effort.</div><div><br></div><div>So the worst headache I got from \
language evolution was from trying to remember which set of features I had available \
for each project. No, that&#39;s second - the biggest one was from arguments about \
when we should adopt a new version. But breaking working code pretty much didn&#39;t \
happen.</div></div></div>



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