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List:       gentoo-project
Subject:    [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout  support ))
From:       Alec Warner <antarus () gentoo ! org>
Date:       2009-03-13 21:37:12
Message-ID: b41005390903131437u517dd8bem5aeb82c70cb1aba5 () mail ! gmail ! com
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bcc: gentoo-dev

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Michael Higgins <linux@evolone.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:09:04 -0700
> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar     , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> > > > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be
> > > > > available via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as a
> > > > > project could realize more of its potential by better
> > > > > integrating people who dont do IRC.
> > 
> > I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and, because
> > of this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are as a
> > community, the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't see
> > the folks on the other end of the big tube as real people. It's much
> > like a technique that militaries use during wars to de-personalize
> > the enemy, except with the Internet, we start that way and have to
> > apply effort to grow closer.
> > 
> 
> This is an interesting point you raise, though I don't think it applies in this \
> case. 
> I believe, rather, that the issue is the 'community' appears more like a 'cabal' \
> when the discussions take place on #IRC and therefore aren't available in public \
> archives.

Technically irc is easy to archive for public use; I believe some
channels do this already.  I don't exactly what you mean by "public
archives"; are you referring to mailing list archives?  What about
other archives like cvs?

> 
> Even if they are, an IRC log is a *terrible* way to document an issue.

I agree, how else should we document decisions?

> 
> Since the discussion is Re: '*DEVS* on IRC', I think the problem should be clear:
> 
> You all get more closely knit, perhaps, yet appear to do more *in secret*. There is \
> *no way* to find out what is going on, without becoming part of the problem... by \
> asking, or lurking, on IRC. This is bad.

cvs logs?

> 
> Example? After months of searching for a reason, after seeing many apparently \
> random updates to a previously stable tree of perl modules, I happen to keep an IRC \
> session log which shows with this FSCKING USEFUL TIDBIT: 
> "... no motivated developers. the perl team completely vanished."
> 
> Anyone considering using Gentoo should KNOW that, if they use perl in any \
> substantive way. Wouldn't you agree? 
> Now, why isn't there a discussion about this on the gentoo-perl mailing list? Not \
> even a post from some DEV with a cry for HELP? If there's a problem, *who* is doing \
> *what* to address it, and *where*? 
> Oh, right, there's *some* discussion on IRC...
> 
> Anyway, it's just one example. In this case, I'd be glad to see *some* \
> documentation of the (apparent total) collapse of the 'perl team' and what is being \
> proposed to fix the problem, *without* having to become part of the cabal.

One of the problems with this type of volunteer system is that someone
has to care first.  You have to see that first post to gentoo-perl
saying 'hey we have no people working on this stuff.'  I don't see a
post like that by anyone; so I'm not surprised that no one has said
anything.  It looks like the only person who still posts to that list
is tove; and I see like maybe 3 threads in 2009.  I don't see how the
developers outside of perl can know that perl is having issues, and if
the devs on the perl project number 0, then there is no one left to
write any documentation anyway.  I guess it is up to the users to
bring that issue to light then.

> 
> Since there is a mailing list dedicated for discussions of perl and gentoo, that \
> seems the most logical place to air the dirty laundry and announce/discuss the plan \
> for moving forward. IMO.

I await your post on the subject.

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> --
> > \  /|        |   |          ~ ~
> > \/ |        |---|          `|` ?
> > > ichael  |   |iggins    \^ /
> michael.higgins[at]evolone[dot]org
> 
> 


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