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List:       gentoo-dev
Subject:    Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3
From:       Tom Wijsman <TomWij () gentoo ! org>
Date:       2014-02-25 19:22:07
Message-ID: 20140225202207.1f57113f () gentoo ! org
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On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:28:41 +0200
Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 
> On 20/02/14 18:27, Tom Wijsman wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200
> > Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> >>>> On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> >>>>>> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>>>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used
> >>>>>>> by 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit)
> >>>>>>> version 3
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ulrich
> >>>>>> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but
> >>>>>> temporary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -1 from here
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be
> >>>>> built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing
> >>>>> both, so +1 from me.  Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does
> >>>>> not mean it's the greatest, and I really wish people would
> >>>>> realize that newest != bestest.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it
> >>>> using that. Later when they have completed their support for
> >>>> GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not
> >>>> rocket science.
> >>>>
> >>> OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal
> >>> with both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or
> >>> the other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm
> >>> willing to deal with the headaches.  Just because you're
> >>> unwilling doesn't mean others aren't.  kthx.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Bye bye distribution level consistency :-(
> >>
> >> It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that.
> >>
> >> - Samuli
> >>
> > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support
> > for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..."
> >
> > If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so.
> > It is pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which
> > somewhat can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit
> > the users' need, and not force our one true way upon them...
> >
> > Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously;
> > you can intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away
> > our happiness. On the other hand, there's the part where you want
> > to break it for a reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd
> > like to hear why.
> >
> 
> So, no more setting USE="gtk" and assuming the best packaged software
> will be get installed, be it with what version of the toolkit, 1, 2
> or 3

What is "best"? What you would deem best, could be worst for the user.

> Instead, now you have to selectively do the maintainers job for
> figuring out which one is the best supported one

The maintainer can use IUSE flag defaults for this; but, there are
users that want to control which toolkit is installed. Going further,
they want to decide which toolkit the software is built with. 

> Despite already picking up a modern theme with both GTK+ 2.x and GTK+
> 3.x looks, now you might end up with half-crippled software just
> because some stubborn people choose the looks, not the functionality,
> to be their motivation

You need to mask that as a packager.

> Such people really don't deserve to own a packager status if they
> can't take the time to determine / examine the package's best
> supported graphical toolkit

What is "best"? If upstream provides both and claims they both are
well supported, I consider both are.

> If multiple ones with similar feature set is supported, then the
> latest toolkit is preferred

What is "preferred"? What you prefer can be different than the user.

> But seems like I'm repeating common sense which the GNOME guideline
> layed out long ago

The GNOME guideline fits just the GNOME team and developers whom follow
that; however, in the bigger picture, there are maintainers that do not
follow that and do something different. Looking at the tracker [1]; it
appears that it is more common for such a bug to be marked as INVALID
or WONTFIX, than it is to be marked as FIXED.

As a result of this, the users get an inconsistent USE flag presented.

The "common sense" is just another wording of "opinion" here; if it
wants to be real "common sense" shared amongst almost everyone, it'll
need a bit more than a guideline.

 [1]:
 https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL%20blocked%3A420493

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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