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List:       gentoo-dev
Subject:    [gentoo-dev] [Fwd: Project Sunrise - Update.]
From:       Christel Dahlskjaer <christel () gentoo ! org>
Date:       2006-06-25 1:36:14
Message-ID: 1151202536.4235.91.camel () gaspode
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It would help if I wasn't prematurely hitting send eh? 
The log can be found attached to this e-mail, Sorry!

-------- Forwarded Message --------
> From: Christel Dahlskjaer <christel@gentoo.org>
> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Project Sunrise - Update.
> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:26:30 +0100
> 
> Hi, 
> We held a meeting earlier this evening between User Relations, Project
> Sunrise, brix and kloeri (unfortunately wolf31o2 was unable to attend)
> to discuss the current and future direction of Project Sunrise. The
> Sunrise developers felt that they were unable to change the format of
> the project in such a way as to address the objections and concerns held
> by other developers and projects, but have instead agreed to remove the
> project page from the Gentoo website and mkove it to an entirely
> unofficial, unsupported project. If the overlay seems to keep a
> reasonable level of quality control then interested users can of course
> be referred there should they require an ebuild not available in the
> main tree, but on the understanding that it is completely unsupported by
> Gentoo.
> 
> In the meantime, other developers will explore the possibility of
> promoting and extending work on proxy-maintainership of packages within
> the tree as a way to improve the management of packages in the tree
> which no developer is able to maintain properly. Most people felt that
> this would help solve the most pressing problems that Sunrise attempts
> to address, while allowing the unofficial Sunrise to continue to work
> towards its other aims. 
> 
> Please ignore any noise in the log, I'm afraid it is the entire log of
> the 24hours of the day and thus may contain some off-topic chit chat at
> the start and finish. 
> 
> Kind Regards, 
> Christel Dahlskjaer
> 

["#gentoo-userrel-meeting.06-24.log" (#gentoo-userrel-meeting.06-24.log)]

--- Log opened Sat Jun 24 00:00:31 2006
04:55 :: Quit: genstef (n=stefan@gentoo/developer/genstef) [Nick collision from \
services.] 04:56 :: Join: genstef (n=stefan@gentoo/developer/genstef) to \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 15:45 :: Join: brix (n=brix@gentoo/developer/brix) to \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 19:51 :: Irssi: #gentoo-userrel-meeting: Total of 4 nicks [0 \
ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] 19:51 :: Irssi: #gentoo-userrel-meeting: Total of \
4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] 19:51  (christel) loha
19:51  * jokey waves for christel
19:51  (jokey) hi christel :D
19:51  (christel) hey hey
19:55 :: Netsplit over, joins: fox2mike
20:02  * christel looks at the clock 
20:02  (christel) hah! im an hour early
20:02  (christel) doh
20:05  (jokey) :D
21:01  (christel) ok
21:01  (christel) its time
21:01  (jokey) yep
21:01  (christel) it doesn't look as if we have much interest here :)
21:01  (christel) give it a few more minutes to see if anyone arrives? 
21:01  (jokey) uhm
21:01  (brix) yeah
21:01  (jokey) who was invited as well?
21:02  (jokey) wolf31o2 I guess?
21:02  (brix) otherwise I propose we postpone the meeting
21:03  (christel) yeah, i agree
21:03  (jokey) so who should have appeared else?
21:04  (genstef) well, userrel and sunrise has two people each and brix is also here, \
can we start? :) 21:04  (brix) userrel, kloeri, ..?
21:04 :: Join: djay-il (n=djay-il@bzq-88-152-110-171.red.bezeqint.net) to \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:05 :: Netsplit over, joins: kloeri
21:05  (kloeri) hi all
21:06 :: Join: omp (n=omp@unaffiliated/omp) to #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:06 :: Join: drac (i=drac@gentoo/contributor/drac) to #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:08 :: Join: mark_alec (n=mark@gentoo/developer/mark-alec) to \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:08  (christel) ding
21:08  (christel) must be magic
21:08  (mark_alec) my alarm didn't work, but i still managed to wake up
21:08  (mark_alec) sorry for being late
21:08  (brix) was this meeting announced anywhere I wasn't aware of ?
21:09 :: Join: dev-zero (n=BerryRyd@gw.ptr-80-238-233-118.customer.ch.netstream.com) \
to #gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:09  (brix) who are all these non-developers?
21:09  (christel) brix: i think genstef just er, mentioned it in -userrel to kloeri \
:o 21:09  (brix) then I'd like to propose a moderated channel
21:09  (kloeri) sunrise contributors I think
21:10  (omp) i can leave if you want; just here to listen, won't talk
21:10  (drac) what omp said
21:10  (dev-zero) me too
21:10  (djay-il) so do i
21:11  (genstef) christel: so what is the plan, where do we start?
21:11  (christel) brix: sure
21:11 :: Mode: [+o kloeri] by christel on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:11 @(kloeri) anybody missing? what about wolf?
21:12  (christel) kloeri: you mind doing moderation stuff then? 
21:12  (jokey) wolf is offline on weekends
21:12 @(kloeri) ok
21:12 :: Mode: [+vvv christel genstef brix] by christel on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:12 :: Mode: [+v jokey] by christel on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:12 +(jokey) fox2mike and mark_alec as well ;)
21:12 +(christel) do we want to proceed or do we want to postpone? 
21:12 :: Mode: [+vv fox2mike mark_alec] by christel on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:13 @(kloeri) so anyway, I think there's a bit of confusion as to what this meeting \
is supposed to be about at all 21:13 @(kloeri) I'm a bit confused at least so if \
somebody could explain that please 21:13 +(christel) ok, at the council meeting it \
was proposed that sunrise speak with userrel, wolf and brix 21:14 @(kloeri) right
21:14 +(christel) to see if the four could work together on improving and tweaking \
the project until it was "perfect" 21:14 +(brix) err
21:14 +(brix) no
21:15 :: Join: padde (n=padde@unaffiliated/padde) to #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:15 +(christel) wasnt that the idea? to discuss whether it could be changed in a \
fashion which would make it possible for us all to work together?  21:15 +(brix) I \
specifically said at the Council meeting that I would not work on a project based on \
the idea behind Project Sunrise 21:15 :: Netsplit over, joins: antarus
21:15 +(christel) brix: yes, as does userrel, we wont work on sunrise in its current \
fashion  21:16  (antarus) sup dawgs
21:16 +(brix) ok, just making sure
21:16 +(brix) someone forget to set +m
21:16 :: Mode: [+m] by kloeri on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
21:16 +(christel) however, with changes eliminating the current dangers to gentoos \
image and infra we for one would be happy to discuss the possibility of working \
together with sunrise 21:16 +(christel) thanks kloeri 
21:16 +(jokey) christel: okay, what's so completely bad with it that you won't work \
with it? 21:17 +(genstef) ok, there are dangers to gentoos image because users could \
get too easy access to unreviewed ebuilds, right? 21:17 +(brix) jokey: if you guys \
would stop pretending the discussion on the mailing list never happened I think we \
could get off to a better start 21:17 @(kloeri) I believe the idea was to see if we \
could find a solution that solves the various issues that's been brought up by brix, \
wolf and others while at the same time trying to reach the goals of project sunrise \
21:17 +(christel) when i say image, i mean pr 21:17 +(genstef) christel: what part of \
sunrise could harm the PR? 21:18 +(christel) if users ended up breaking their systems \
as a result of us providing unsupported ebuilds on official hardware then that would \
be a big PR risk to gentoo 21:18 +(christel) then there are security risks
21:18 +(christel) anyhow
21:18 +(christel) we've been over this several times
21:18 +(brix) agreed
21:18 +(christel) ive said my piece on several occasions
21:18 +(christel) as has brix and many others
21:19 +(christel) we don't need to repeat the ML thread
21:19 +(jokey) fully agree
21:19 +(brix) thank you
21:19 +(jokey) just want to know how we can improve
21:19 +(jokey) s/know/discuss/
21:20 +(brix) jokey: would you be willing to give up the idea of the overlay? there \
are other ways to meet the goals of the project 21:20 +(jokey) brix: what other ways \
can you think of then? 21:21 +(brix) jokey: are we pretending the discussion after \
the council meeting didn't happen as well? 21:21 :: Mode: [+v antarus] by kloeri on \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:21 +(jokey) well there must obviously be more than proxy \
maintaining which is done already 21:22 @(kloeri) jokey: proxy maintaining exists now \
for very, very few ebuilds 21:22  * antarus plans to increase proxy "maintaining"
21:22 @(kloeri) I think the idea would be to massively scale that up and improve the \
idea in several ways 21:22 +(jokey) after scouring around for some days now, I found \
out that sourcemage (maybe you know that distro) uses the same approach as sunrise \
21:23 +(jokey) they have a main tree and a "contributor" tree 21:23 +(brix) jokey: \
FreeBSD uses proxy maintainers - what does this have to do with Gentoo? 21:23 \
+(antarus) Specificy regarding some maintainer-needed packages, I'm interested in \
getting bugs closed and if users can help with that, all the better, although I've \
only had 1 user come forward to help out thus far. 21:24 +(jokey) brix: it is an \
example of a working thing 21:24 +(brix) so is FreeBSD
21:24 +(jokey) but I'm open for other ideas as well
21:24 +(brix) jokey: so you are not locked on the idea of an overlay?
21:24 +(jokey) nop
21:25 +(brix) genstef: how about you?
21:25 +(jokey) but we discovered in the last weeks that users are pretty excited \
about having their ebuild work noticed/reviewed 21:25 +(brix) I'm trying to establish \
what we have to work with here 21:25 +(genstef) brix: well, I know of no better way \
to allow little dev involvement and high user involvement 21:26 +(christel) then we \
would have to make sure that their work was recognized even if we didnt go the \
overlays route 21:26 +(jokey) and that they can commit somewhere, one or two devs \
look at it and then they can "use" their work via layman -a sunrise 21:26 +(brix) \
genstef: it's a simple question 21:26 @(kloeri) jokey: they could also get that from \
proxy maintaining as I see it 21:26 :: Join: beandog \
(n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) to #gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:27 +(brix) jokey: \
speaking of layman - it was specifically said in the mailing list discussion that \
Project Sunrise would not be made available through layman? 21:27 +(genstef) brix: we \
said until review and qa has been implemented. 21:27 +(genstef) brix: that is \
implemented now :) 21:28 +(brix) how can it be? the project is suspended, right?
21:28 +(genstef) yeah in overlays.gentoo.org, dont get us back to that.
21:28 +(genstef) it is implemented.
21:29 +(genstef) people cannot commit directly to what goes out on layman
21:29 +(genstef) only a developer can move packages to the layman directory
21:30 +(antarus) a developer or a full time commiter?
21:30 +(brix) so you decided to go against what was promised on the mailing list, you \
decided to go against what the Council adviced? 21:30 +(jokey) antarus: a full \
developer only 21:31 +(genstef) antarus: a fulltime committer does not exist for us.
21:31 +(genstef) antarus: we only have the separation between normal users and \
"trusted committers" 21:31 +(genstef) trusted committers have taken the ebuild quiz \
and can add there ebuilds without preview to the non-layman dir 21:32 +(genstef) all \
other users need to go through pre-review in the IRC-Channel 21:32 +(jokey) and to \
point that out, every commit is announced by a bot in the channel so we don't miss a \
commit 21:33 +(brix) you guys never sleep?
21:33 +(christel) i find that fairly worrying that the project ignored the suspension \
and went ahead regardless 21:33 +(antarus) bots bad, commit-alias good ;)
21:33 +(antarus) just FYI :0
21:33 +(antarus) commit-alias = history ;)
21:33 +(genstef) christel: it was suggested several times in the council meeting that \
everyone would be ok with it on non-gentoo hardware. 21:33 +(brix) I find it pretty \
worrying that the developers tend to brush of questions and concerns without \
answering them 21:34 +(jokey) antarus: it is live on the gentoo-sunrise.org page
21:34 +(brix) genstef: as an unofficial project, yes
21:34 +(antarus) brix: I think they've done a decent job
21:34 +(genstef) brix: well, when we sleep no one can commit to the layman dir \
anyway, so when we wake up we can review everything from the night 21:35 +(jokey) \
antarus: if you want to look http://tinyurl.com/nntw6 21:35 +(brix) antarus: I thin \
they've done a decent job ignoring other people 21:35 +(jokey) brix: and as it was \
said on the devrel channel, I am implementing a mechanism that the "users-commit-dir" \
can only be checked out when you actually have a user name 21:36 +(brix) genstef: you \
never answered my question? 21:36 +(genstef) the basic point is: users cannot cause \
any breakage, they can only commit to a pre-review directory, not to the final layman \
directory 21:36 +(brix) good , point made
21:36 +(brix) now, please answer my question.
21:36 +(genstef) brix: "you guys never sleep?" <-- you cann that a question?
21:36 +(genstef) call*
21:37 +(brix) no
21:37 @(kloeri) genstef, jokey: I'd agree with brix and christel that you going ahead \
full steam despite of the suspension is a bit worrying 21:37 +(brix) genstef: I asked \
if you would be willing to drop the idea of an overlay  21:38 @(kloeri) genstef, \
jokey: I think everybody would be a lot more comfortable if you spend a bit more time \
working out the remaining issues instead of spending it on the current sunrise \
</personal opinion> 21:38 +(brix) genstef: it's a simple yes/no question
21:38 +(antarus) kloeri++
21:38 +(jokey) kloeri: well how can we change anything if we can't access it (as it \
is now on o.g.o)? 21:39 +(brix) jokey: we could plan what to do - then implement it
21:39 +(antarus) jokey: I think it's a matter of thinking about it...
21:39 +(brix) jokey: instead of implementing as we go along
21:39 +(antarus) not "oh lets try this, ok it sucks, lets try thing2"
21:39 @(kloeri) jokey: I'm not talking about o.g.o but about moving everything \
offsite and pretending everything is fine (this is how it's going to look to \
outsiders) 21:40 +(jokey) well we worked out all points that dostrow and others said \
"it would be well then" 21:40 +(jokey) s/well/ok/
21:40 +(brix) "dostrow and the others"?
21:41 +(jokey) dostrow, wolf, others as well
21:41 +(genstef) you remember the constructive "Sunrise - a proposal" thread
21:41 @(kloeri) I'm well aware that many issues have been resolved to some degree but \
things got so bad that it was taken to council and was suspended - that should be \
grounds for stopping up and giving it some serious consideration 21:41 +(brix) \
genstef: oh, you're still here - I thought you had left 21:41 +(brix) genstef: now, \
would you be so kind and answer my question? 21:42 +(genstef) brix: I have answered \
you the question several times already 21:42 +(genstef) you keep asking it
21:42 @(kloeri) genstef: worth noting that the project was suspended well after that \
thread so the council obviously thought there was still some serious issues to be \
worked out 21:42 +(brix) please answer it one more time - I seem to have missed your \
previous replies 21:42 +(genstef) the answer is plain "no", there is no other way \
that allows that much user work and that little dev work 21:42 +(brix) genstefok
21:43 +(brix) genstef: ok
21:43 +(christel) ok
21:43 +(brix) genstef: so the tool is more important to you than the goals of the \
project? 21:43 +(christel) in that case i dont feel i can offer much more before the \
project has proven that there is no risks involved for gentoo 21:43 +(genstef) brix: \
no, when you have something that is better then tell us? 21:44 +(genstef) brix: just \
because I dont know off anything does not mean it does not exist. 21:44 +(brix) \
genstef: but you just said you weold not give up the idea of an overlay? 21:44 \
+(genstef) brix: well, give me a proposal where i can say yes/no 21:44 +(brix) (sorry \
about my spelling ,I'm on a dead slow GPRS link) 21:44 +(genstef) brix: \
proxymaintaining-> no, is no replacement but an addition 21:45 +(genstef) brix: so \
better ideas? 21:45 +(genstef) I think it is better to have something than nothing, \
right? 21:45 +(brix) genstef: no point in trying to make another proposal to you if \
you are not willing to accept anything no involving an overlay 21:46 +(genstef) well, \
anyway why is the overlay so bad? 21:46 :: Quit: mark_alec \
(n=mark@gentoo/developer/mark-alec) ["fell asleep"] 21:46 +(genstef) in my opinion \
many ways of user involvement can coexist - sunrise, bugzilla, IRC, forums .. 21:46 \
+(jokey) (marc alec is ahead some hours) 21:47 +(brix) we all know your opinion
21:47 +(jokey) brix: so other ideas except proxy-maintaining?
21:47 +(jokey) just ideas first, we can work them out later on
21:48 +(genstef) so we make a list of what we want, direct user involvement, \
developer review, and then we check what idea is the best? :) 21:48 +(brix) christel, \
kloeri: if genstef is so focused on the tool instead of the goals I think I'm wasting \
my time 21:48 @(kloeri) brix: I agree unfortunately
21:48 +(christel) brix: nod, i can understand that and i am sorry that it appears we \
cant come to a different solution  21:48 +(antarus) I think a contrib overlay is \
perfectly fine, as long as it's not gentoo related 21:49 +(brix) antarus: as do I
21:49 +(antarus) I don't mean "semi-official" or "official but suspended" but "not \
gentoo related at all" 21:49 +(antarus) I think having developers work in that \
overlay is a positive thing 21:49 +(jokey) I'd be glad to hear other ideas except \
proxy maintaining. Are there some? 21:49 +(brix) antarus: I fully agree - I've been \
saying that from day one 21:49 @(kloeri) genstef: please consider that council \
suspended the project - this is the first time something like that have ever \
happened, so sticking too much to the current plan likely won't bring you any closer \
to becoming an official project 21:49 +(brix) jokey: not off hand, no
21:50 +(antarus) at the present time I don't think the developer community would \
support anything like what there is now 21:51 +(jokey) I'd be happy if we find an \
easy way to involve users, just need an "idea" 21:51 +(antarus) jokey: I don't see \
how bugzilla doesn't involve users though.. 21:51 +(jokey) obviously users are too \
shy or whatever to ask for proxy-maintaining 21:51 +(antarus) I've been deprecating \
packages for treecleaners and users poke me and are like hey, I like that package, \
what do I need to do to keep it in the tree? 21:52 +(brix) jokey: agreed
21:52 +(genstef) well a user asked on the maintainer-needed some time ago
21:52 +(genstef) to proxy maintain tightvnc
21:52 +(genstef) jun 16
21:52 +(brix) jokey: that's the idea behind the "proxy" project, we talked about 
21:52 +(jokey) brix: right
21:52 +(genstef) as I am on the maintainer-needed alias I even got the mail ..
21:52 +(antarus) genstef: ironically I'm not on the -needed alias ;P
21:52 +(antarus) I need to turn off duplicate mail on bugs
21:53 +(antarus) I'm getting qa and treecleaner mail already..
21:53 +(brix) antarus: you can do that?
21:53 +(antarus) brix: I think so?
21:53  * antarus checks
21:53 +(brix) how would bugzilla know?
21:53 +(jokey) brix: but I personally know about ~30 people willing to contribute to \
something like sunrise, managed ebuild place or whatever but feel that \
proxy-maintaining is the same as being a dev and don't have capabilities to deal with \
a potential bug 21:53 +(brix) anyways, OT
21:53 @(kloeri) jokey: one of the problems with proxy maintaining now is that hardly \
any devs knows about it but a project could advertise it easily 21:53 +(genstef) \
well, how did it work out: seemant forwardded the m-n@ mail to wolf31o2 but seems he \
had no interest either 21:54 +(genstef) and I have no interest in tightvnc either
21:54 +(genstef) so no one is now proxy-maintainer for this guy
21:54 +(genstef) just a real-world example.
21:54 +(jokey) brix: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105258, a \
proxy-maintainer would be needed to solve this as he is the maintainer behind 21:55 \
:: Join: trickv (n=trick@24-247-121-95.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com) to \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting 21:55 +(jokey) unfortunately not that many people can dive \
easily into the details of such an issue 21:55 +(antarus) jokey: technically \
maintained by net-irc 21:56 +(genstef) kloeri: I think the problem is that many devs \
are just not interested - it is not very rewarding to proxy maintain - you need to do \
all the work anyway 21:56 +(brix) jokey: well, a proxy maintainer should not commit \
himself/herself to software they do not understand 21:56 +(jokey) antarus: yep, this \
is not proxy-maintained, was just an example for a more "deep" bug, actually you need \
to know about C to fix it 21:56 +(brix) that's the whole idea of a proxy maintainer
21:56 +(jokey) brix: but what about people who can write damn good bash code and \
ebuilds? 21:56 +(genstef) brix: I am proxy maintaining some hardware drivers
21:57 @(kloeri) genstef: I don't agree with doing all the work and you should be able \
to find developers in most areas willing to proxy commit if presented properly 21:57 \
+(brix) jokey: I think many of our developers do not know C either - nor would they \
know how to fix such a bug 21:57 +(genstef) brix: basically those are all kind of \
proxy maintained, because I cannot test them 21:57 +(genstef) at76c503a or acx100
21:57 +(brix) jokey: what about them?
21:57  * antarus notes that some of these are upstream bugs
21:57 +(brix) genstef: so you like the idea of proxy maintainers?
21:57 +(jokey) brix: shouldn't they be involved as well?
21:58 +(brix) jokey: they are free to use bugzilla as usual
21:58 +(genstef) brix: I like it but I think it does not go far enough :)
21:58 +(christel) ok, in what ways does it not go far enough 
21:58 +(jokey) brix: but if he commits an ebuild there and the app isn't that much of \
interest for a dev, no-one would respect that (good!) work and pick it up 21:58 \
+(christel) what is the limitations as far as you see it?  21:59 +(brix) jokey: if \
nobody picks it up it might be bacuse we have nobody to maintain it 21:59 +(genstef) \
christel: it does not allow me to proxy-maintain something without generating a bunch \
of work - I need to commit myself, commit updates, care for the bugs, ... 21:59 \
+(brix) jokey: project sunrise doesn't solve that problem either 21:59 +(christel) \
and how would sunrise be any different 21:59 +(antarus) brix: I think the belief \
there is that the user is the maintainer, and someone just needs to proxy 21:59 \
+(brix) antarus: where? 22:00 +(jokey) brix: I asked a couple of people there if they \
are willing to proxy maintain it but they refused because they're responsible for \
things they don't completely know about 22:00 +(christel) had the concept been \
explained to them in detail?  22:00 +(jokey) brix: and sunrise solves it in that way, \
that some people talked about it (during review) and maybe find a maintainer for it \
(just did that today with some perl modules) 22:00 +(brix) jokey: so they're better \
off comitting ebuilds to project sunrise? for software they don't know about? 22:01 \
+(genstef) brix: the people who commit know about it - and that is important 22:01 \
+(jokey) brix: well we can build a bridge to devs more easily 22:01 +(antarus) \
christel: perhaps we should write up a proxy-maintainership guide on how exactly to \
go about it?  In the end however the developer needs to know about the package, and \
any bugs/changes/etc 22:02 +(brix) jokey: a bridge is nice - but I think there are \
too many problems with having an overlay like sunrise 22:02 +(genstef) heck, even \
arch linux has an user repository. why can gentoo not be so open :( 22:02 +(jokey) \
brix: so how can we build a bridge then that has the same "level" of requirement on \
user side? 22:02 +(brix) genstef: we are not arch linux
22:02 +(antarus) so I should go commit a bunch of patches that have security holes to \
sunrise? 22:03 +(antarus) hypothetically speaking, who looks at them?
22:03 +(jokey) antarus: yep, pretend to be a user, come in some days later and then \
you'll see how it works 22:03 +(brix) jokey: basically, I think the "level" of \
requirements from the user side is one of the problems with Project Sunrise 22:03 \
+(genstef) antarus: we can even look at patches :) 22:03 +(christel) antarus: i am \
confident that the proxy maintainence stuff would be handled in the best way \
possible, including documentation :) and yes, it would be an idea to have some docs \
in place, however, it hasnt been needed just yet  22:04 +(genstef) so, find a proxy \
maintainer for Martin Diers for tightvnc and I am happy 22:04 +(jokey) brix: well \
users need a point to start off and learn by doing. but if no one is there to see \
what they're doing, how are they recognized then? 22:05 +(antarus) genstef: I know \
you can, the question is do you, and how do you verify sanity? 22:05 +(jokey) brix: \
(that's the current situation with bugzie) 22:05 +(genstef) brix: who lurks on the \
maintainer-wanted/needed bugs? Who offers users review? I think that is hard, in \
sunrise it is very easy with users just asking for review 22:05 +(antarus) if I throw \
something tcl at you and you don't know tcl, does it go in anyway, or do you learn \
tcl...or do you find a dev that does...or what? :) 22:06 +(antarus) -needed bugs \
either get closed by me or get punted by me, for the most part 22:06 +(brix) genstef: \
who said anything about maintainer-wanted/needed? 22:06 +(brix) again, yu're jumping \
to implementation before the idea is even hashed out 22:07 +(genstef) antarus: when \
we have something we cannot directly review we ask a developer 22:07 +(genstef) \
antarus: when developers are asked for review directly they are usually helpfull :) \
22:08 +(brix) jokey: well, I hope that if we have a widely known project for proxy \
maintainers we can attract the people out there whould just like to maintain one or \
two packaged 22:08 +(brix) jokey: people who otherwise just stick an ebuild into \
bugzilla 22:08 +(genstef) brix: there are people out there who do, Martin Diers is \
one of them 22:08 +(brix) jokey: but still people who would like to commit themselves \
to the project somehow 22:09 +(jokey) brix: well proxy-maintainers don't commit \
anything 22:09 +(brix) genstef: let's not discuss a single case here
22:09 +(genstef) ah, commit - now comes a keyword - commit without an overlay sounds \
like a good idea :) 22:09 +(jokey) brix: they send you an email
22:09 +(brix) jokey: not as in cvs commit, you misunderstood
22:09 +(brix) jokey: actually, I was thinking of using bugzilla for it
22:10 +(brix) genstef: being committed
22:10 +(brix) not cvs commit
22:10 +(jokey) brix: well okay, doesn't matter if you send you a mail or file a bug \
on bugzie.. 22:10 @(kloeri) bugzilla would be much saner than email for all the usual \
reasons (keeping history etc.) 22:10 +(brix) kloeri: exactly
22:10 +(jokey) kloeri: well okay, your point here
22:10 +(jokey) but the effect is the same
22:10 +(genstef) irc has proven to be much more productive :)
22:11 +(brix) genstef: it has also proven to be anarchistic
22:11 @(kloeri) irc also loses all the good things you get from bugtrackers
22:11 +(brix) irc is not an option for a project like this
22:12 @(kloeri) irc is good for poking people about already filed bugs etc. imo, not \
for structured development (any amount of structure) 22:12 +(genstef) kloeri: the \
good thing is: we can even use both combined, irc for productivity and when some \
level has been reached, bugs :) 22:12 +(antarus) bugs is what we use...please don't \
circumvent it 22:12 +(brix) genstef: and this differs from the idea of proxy \
maintainers how>? 22:12 +(antarus) I file bugs for even tiny things, tracking is \
important ;) 22:12 +(brix) antarus: agreed
22:12 +(jokey) brix: well imagine, no, let's take real facts here. netmon herd has \
currently only 2 active devs, people even stick patches into the bugs, we (as the \
real maintainers) have just no time to test and commit them...and all in all the real \
maintainer is responsible for what happens 22:13 +(jokey) no matter if a contributing \
user or a "proxy-maintained" dev 22:13 +(brix) jokey: and sunrise solves this how?
22:13 +(antarus) jokey: so recruit more people?
22:13 +(jokey) brix: it is officially unsupported
22:13 +(brix) jokey: is it now?
22:13 +(jokey) antarus: I try, have one recruit currently
22:14 +(jokey) brix: yep, it was since it was founded
22:14 @(kloeri) proxy maintaining would help imo, as it takes me a lot less time \
looking over a patch / ebuild update than doing the patch myself 22:14 +(genstef) \
brix: no bugs about ebuilds in sunrise 22:14 +(jokey) brix: copy from (suspended) \
o.g.o page: "Nevertheless the overlay ebuilds are mainly from users, thus being \
unsupported and experimental  ¶" 22:14 +(genstef) kloeri: but you wont do it for \
ebuilds your are not interested in 22:15 @(kloeri) especially if I already have some \
relationship to the person doing the patch 22:15 +(brix) jokey: so how do you and \
genstef, two developers, find time to not only commit the stuff from the netmon herd \
- but also all the other ebuilds submitted to sunrise? 22:15 @(kloeri) genstef: I \
already maintain several hundred ebuilds I'm not interested in.. 22:15 +(genstef) \
brix: we do not commit them, we just review them :) 22:15 +(brix) genstef: same same
22:15 @(kloeri) genstef: proxy maintaining would be rather a blessing for most of \
these packages 22:16 +(jokey) brix: if you don't need to pay attention, that _all_ \
gentoo users get that ebuild and contains potentially bad app or something, you don't \
need to test the app in X environments to make sure it works everywhere 22:16 +(brix) \
jokey: so Project Sunrise has bad QA? 22:16 +(genstef) kloeri: yes, I see that, so \
you are missing proxy maintainers? 22:17 +(jokey) brix: it has good QA, we check the \
ebuilds carefully (even 5 or more people look at it) and the user tests it as well \
22:17 +(brix) the ebuilds are one thing 22:17 +(jokey) and if we're unsure if  the \
app is trustfully (you know the homepage field in the ebuild), we simply reject it \
22:17 @(kloeri) genstef: I'd love proxy maintainers and I think many other developers \
are just like that 22:17 +(brix) the actual software another
22:18 +(genstef) kloeri: yeah, I have a few people, but you dont get the real fixes \
out of them - they do not have the skill level usually. You have to redo it yourself \
22:18 +(jokey) brix: the point is, we don't need to give reasons why it is bad or \
whatever. if we don't like it, we say no and no one objects 22:19 +(jokey) (and we \
already did that, so no theoretical reasons here) 22:19 +(brix) jokey: I don't see \
you point? 22:19 +(jokey) brix: if that wasn't an answer to you, then you might be \
right that I misunderstood your question 22:19 @(kloeri) genstef: in that case \
they're either not the right people or you need to do some mentoring to bring them to \
that level 22:19 +(brix) anywyas, I don't think we're getting anywhere with this \
discussion 22:20 +(jokey) (not a native english speaker so there might be problems)
22:20 +(genstef) kloeri: well, the point is those interested people are developers \
rather quickly then. 22:20 +(brix) jokey: me neither :)
22:20 +(genstef) kloeri: so you do not really get many of those, they can do it \
themselves then 22:20 @(kloeri) genstef: mentoring != new-dev bugs
22:20 +(jokey) brix: okay, maybe reword it then
22:20 +(jokey) brix: I want to make sure we know what we both talk about
22:20 @(kloeri) genstef: no reason you can't mentor somebody without the goal being \
immediately making them full devs 22:20 +(brix) right
22:21 +(genstef) kloeri: so you are saying we have a large user base who would be \
willing to get up to shortly-before-dev and then "proxy-maintain"? 22:21 @(kloeri) \
genstef: sure, just look at arch testers 22:21 +(brix) genstef: given the amount of \
maintainer-wanted bugs and the number of arch testes, yes - I do 22:22 @(kloeri) \
proxy-maintain would allow them to only maintain one or two packages without the full \
responsibility of being a dev 22:22 +(brix) and without the full risks of being a dev
22:22 +(jokey) kloeri: so in case the proxy fails, the dev has to finally do the \
work? 22:22 +(genstef) yeah. I would like to see proxy-maintaining how you see it in \
action 22:23 @(kloeri) jokey: yes of course
22:23 +(brix) jokey: or the package can be dropped
22:23 +(brix) no maintainer
22:23 +(genstef) right, different options :)
22:23 @(kloeri) the developer is still responsible for the package even if a proxy \
maintainer does most of the work 22:24 @(kloeri) so either fix it or drop the package
22:24 +(jokey) kloeri: well I fear more of the part that one steps up, says "hey I \
like that, I maintain it", it's a well known lib and then the dev has to do the work \
because the proxy got MIA 22:25 +(genstef) -> maintainer-needed
22:25 +(brix) jokey: no different than a dev going MIA
22:25 +(jokey) (which is a big problem as well)
22:25 +(antarus) brix: potentially an issue of scale ;)
22:25 +(genstef) well, as I said I would like to see that proxy maintaining in action
22:25 @(kloeri) yeah, not a new problem at all and not something we can solve imo
22:25 +(brix) and in the man time,all our end users have benefit from the work of the \
proxy 22:26 +(brix) not just a select few who pulled in a non-supported overlay
22:26 +(brix) s/man/mean/
22:26 +(genstef) brix: agreement
22:27 +(brix) oh, we finally agree on something :)
22:27  * brix puts a red X in his calendar
22:27 +(genstef) brix: so hwo do we get it forward?
22:27 @(kloeri) heh
22:28 +(brix) genstef: the next step would be to draft up the idea behind the new \
project and submit it to -dev for review 22:28 +(genstef) cool, do we two do that? :)
22:28 +(brix) genstef: this still leaves the question about sunrise floating in \
mid-air though 22:29 +(brix) genstef: I'd rather not work two people on a initial \
draft 22:29 +(jokey) brix: well another way into your direction
22:29 +(brix) jokey: yes?
22:29 +(jokey) brix: we make sunrise completely unofficial, just put a note somewhere \
on gentoo that there are people who let you "experiment" the thing. 22:30 @(kloeri) \
need to work together imo but that can easily happen as one of you doing the initial \
draft and bouncing it back and forth on mail until this small group is happy 22:30 \
+(brix) jokey: a note would defeat the meaning of non-official 22:30 +(brix) kloeri: \
agreed 22:31 +(jokey) brix: actually gentoo-wiki is completely unofficial as well but \
mentioned by devs... 22:31 +(brix) jokey: on the website?
22:31 +(jokey) on some dev.g.o/~ websites, yes
22:32 +(brix) jokey: you're free to mention it on your dev.g.o space for all I care
22:33 +(brix) jokey: so that settles it, then?
22:33 +(genstef) brix: well, for the proxy maintaining, can you work something out \
there? 22:33 +(fox2mike) jokey: for example, the docs-team ensures we don't mention \
gentoo-wiki anywhere on the docs because we don't control content 22:34 +(brix) \
genstef: definately 22:34 +(genstef) cool :)
22:34 +(brix) so Project Sunrise will continue as a completely unofficial project \
without mention on www.g.o? 22:35 +(genstef) let the council decide that
22:35 +(genstef) I see ways for cooperation :)
22:35 +(brix) I thought that was what jokey just proposed?
22:35 +(genstef) brix: for example trusted committers can be used as proxymaintainers
22:36 +(genstef) brix: because they have proven they can do ebuilds
22:36 +(antarus) I think brix just wants an answer to his question ;0
22:36 +(genstef) my answer is "no" :)
22:36 +(brix) "trusted committers" have the exact same rights as any other user out \
there 22:37 +(fox2mike) genstef: there is nothing for the council to decide? If \
sunrise stays the way it is, it won't become official? 22:37 +(brix) jokey: so I \
misunderstood your proposal? 22:38 +(christel) hrmph
22:38 +(genstef) I would sunrise to be an official project on unofficial hardware
22:38 +(brix) genstef: that's not possible
22:38 +(genstef) because I think it should be supported by gentoo developers and not \
fought 22:38 +(brix) christel: fell asleep? ;)
22:38 +(genstef) not like gentoo-wiki where everyone says it is bad
22:39 +(brix) actually, I think gentoo-wiki is rather good
22:39 +(brix) I often use it myself
22:39 +(genstef) well, I like it too
22:39 +(brix) but I'd hate to see it made official
22:39 +(christel)  brix no, sorry, had to attend to one of my summer of code students \
for a moment 22:39 +(christel) :)
22:39 +(genstef) but some developers just always say it is bad when it is mentioned
22:39 +(jokey) sry, was shortly afk
22:40 +(brix) genstef: they are entitled to their  opionion
22:40 +(brix) err
22:40 +(antarus) genstef: when you are in #gentoo and have to pick up the pieces, you \
don't end up being a fan ;) 22:40 +(brix) (I can not spell at this rate!)
22:40 +(antarus) it is a very good resource for users, but you must take it with a \
grain of salt ;) 22:40 +(brix) of course
22:40 +(brix) jokey?
22:40 +(genstef) brix: yeah negative opinions are very bad - and many people said \
that they like usnrise if it is on nongentoo.org 22:41 +(genstef) brix: you included
22:41 +(brix) genstef: yes
22:41 +(brix) genstef: I stand by that
22:41 +(genstef) so I think to solve that we can just say we leave it where it is and \
do not move it back to overlays.gentoo.org 22:41 +(genstef) so everyone is happy with \
it and we can work together again? 22:41 +(brix) and remove the project page
22:41 +(jokey) (and remove it from the o.g.o page)
22:42 +(brix) righr, that too
22:42 +(genstef) I think the project page is good to track who is working on it.
22:42 +(brix) we don't track unofficial project on official project pages
22:42 +(genstef) it is still a gentoo project after all.
22:42 +(genstef) by gentoo developers
22:42 +(brix) no, it's not
22:42 +(genstef) but on nongentoo.org
22:42 +(christel) i dont think it can be a bit of both
22:43 +(brix) genstef: it's either or
22:43 +(brix) not both
22:43 +(christel) that is, if its unofficial then it has to be that, not have a \
official project page 22:43 +(christel) if its official then it all needs to be spik \
and span 22:43 +(christel) </foreignism>
22:43 +(brix) heh
22:43 +(jokey) spik and span?
22:43 +(jokey) (sry don't know that)
22:44 +(brix) Neat, clean and tidy.
22:44 +(genstef) well, I do not want to give it up as a gentoo project, sorry
22:45 +(genstef) I think this is something very much what gentoo wants: user \
involvement, .. 22:45 +(brix) jokey: do you agree with genstef on this? did I \
misunderstodd what you said earlier? 22:45 +(christel) yes, what brix said
22:45 +(brix) man, I'm a lousy typer tonight
22:46  * antarus poofs for father time
22:47 +(brix) jokey?
22:49 +(brix) "is this thing on"?
22:49 +(fox2mike) hehe
22:49 +(fox2mike) yes brix 
22:49 +(fox2mike) it's "on" :p
22:50 +(fox2mike) except the rest of them seem to have poofed
22:50 @(kloeri) jokey must have fallen asleep again :)
22:50 +(genstef) brix: would you support it without a project page?
22:50 +(brix) genstef: support it how?
22:50 +(genstef) brix: ie would you not say on every occasion that it is bad
22:51 +(genstef) now I would expect you to say "sunrise is bad" when a user says \
something about it 22:51 +(brix) I've said all along that see no problem having \
Sunrise as an unofficial project, yes 22:51 +(genstef) so when we remove that project \
page - would that change? 22:51 +(genstef) ok
22:51 +(brix) I have no issue with neither gentoo-wiki, BMG or other community \
projects 22:51 +(genstef) so, then we remove the project page.
22:51 @(kloeri) genstef: project page or no project page, people are entitled to \
their opinions (portage devs knows this better than anyone else :) 22:51 +(genstef) \
and the overlay. 22:51 +(brix) they're free to do whatever they want
22:52 +(brix) doesn't mean I applaude everything they do
22:52 +(brix) genstef: ok
22:52 +(genstef) :)
22:53 +(brix) so we have reached a conclusion regarding project sunrise, and we've \
spawned an idea for another project :) 22:53 +(christel) hmm
22:53 +(brix) not bad for 2 hours of meeting
22:54 +(christel) :)
22:54 +(jokey) christel: so should we talk about userrel cooperating with an \
unofficial project now *fg* ? 22:54 +(brix) heh
22:54 +(fox2mike) good night folks, 0324 here
22:54 +(jokey) hmm UTC+6...
22:54 +(christel) uhm, i think all userrel can do for a unofficial one is to \
acknowledge its existance  22:55 +(jokey) or 5.5
22:55 +(fox2mike) 5.5
22:55 +(fox2mike) :)
22:55 +(christel) nn fox2mike babe :)
22:55 @(kloeri) night fox2mike 
22:55 +(jokey) night fox2mike
22:55 +(brix) night fox2mike - thanks
22:55 +(genstef) christel: we could encourage users to use it.
22:55 +(fox2mike) np, didn't do much in here :) I'm glad it's reached a conclusion \
though! 22:55 +(brix) fox2mike: we all are, I think :)
22:56 +(genstef) christel: as in use = bring their ebuilds in.
22:56 +(fox2mike) yeah :) (big sigh of relief)
22:57 +(christel) certainly, if the project is good/works/etc then there is no \
problem with saying "although gentoo doesnt offer $blah, there is this great resource \
over at $gleh" in a similar fashion to how we refer people to -wiki.com and similar \
these days 22:57 +(brix) right
22:57 +(christel) but thats not something userrel would do
22:57 +(christel) its something people do
22:57 +(christel) based on their own views of the resource
22:57 +(christel) ie. someone who finds gentoo-wiki useful will point people there 
22:58 +(christel) someone who doesnt wont 
22:58 +(jokey) I'd be happy if it isn't longer entitled as "the uber bad project..."
22:58 +(christel) heh, i havent heard anyone refer to it as bad to users
22:58 +(jokey) or "sunrice"
22:58 +(christel) nor do i think that would happen 
22:58 +(brix) jokey: agreed
22:58 +(christel) that i agree on 
22:59 +(genstef) cool :)
22:59 +(brix) jokey: I'm sorry I called in Sunrice in the first place - it was a lame \
joke 22:59 +(jokey) brix: well somehow some people used it as the name to refer to it \
and that hurt after some time 22:59 +(brix) jokey: I know.
23:00 +(jokey) okies. so who summarizes it and sends it out to the -dev crowd?
23:00 +(brix) as soon as Stuart pointed it out to me in #-dev I stopped
23:00 +(brix) christel: since you called the meeting and all...? ;)
23:01 +(christel) id be happy to, unless sunrise feels they should be the ones to \
come with the announcement that they are taking the official page down etc? 23:01 \
+(brix) fair enough 23:01 +(christel) would you want me to include the log, or just a \
summary?  23:02 +(jokey) well a summary would do I think
23:02 +(christel) and jokey /genstef would you rather do it yourself or shall i do \
it? :) 23:02 +(jokey) no I do it
23:02 +(genstef) well, I trust jokey in that
23:02 +(brix) a log would be nice - to keep off rumours of what happened
23:02 +(jokey) and remove it from o.g.o
23:02 @(kloeri) summary + log would probably be best if something isn't clear from \
the summary 23:02 +(genstef) so I will need to get out at 6:30 tomorrow
23:02 +(brix) kloeri: agreed
23:02 +(genstef) gn8
23:02 +(christel) yeah, summary + log sounds good
23:02 +(christel) nn genstef 
23:02 +(genstef) thank you all!
23:02 +(brix) genstef: night - sleep well
23:02 @(kloeri) nite genstef 
23:02 +(brix) genstef: thank you
23:02 +(christel) ok, jokey did you just say that you would? :)
23:03 +(jokey) remove it, not summarize
23:03 +(christel) aah
23:03 +(christel) nod, then im with you
23:03 +(jokey) :D
23:03 +(christel) <- slow
23:03 +(christel) :)
23:03 +(jokey) not my best english this evening/night/whatever ;)
23:03 +(brix) I'd like to thank christel for calling this meeting
23:03  * jokey too
23:03 +(brix) jokey: heh, me neither
23:03 +(christel) thank you all for coming 
23:05 +(jokey) btw any news for a more "fresh" VCS system for gentoo and gentoo-x86 ? \
syncing the latter took nearly an hour now... 23:05 @(kloeri) yeah, thanks for coming \
and having a nice meeting 23:05 +(christel) :)
23:05 +(brix) jokey: I believe some devs are already looking into that
23:05 +(jokey) christel: as SoC, do you know a "news" about the project regarding \
that? 23:06 @(kloeri) jokey: "fresh"? mp news about alternate VCS'es afaik except \
that they all seem to take far too long for the conversion to be viable 23:06 \
@(kloeri) err, s/mp/no/ 23:06 +(christel) is that the soc project antarus is working \
on?  23:06 @(kloeri) can't really stop all development for a week or more to convert \
the tree 23:06 +(christel) he is testing out various vcs'es, he may be able to give \
you an idea 23:07 +(jokey) well last time i got some stats, I heard that cvs2svn took \
only about one or two hours... 23:07 +(brix) kloeri: we could have to
23:07 +(jokey) if they have it afterwards, I'd even say half a day no new checkins \
would be possible 23:08 +(brix) kloeri: anyways, we've done some experiements on \
converting cvs to svn/mercury/... at work - I've shared these with solar and he \
promised to pass them on 23:08 @(kloeri) brix: not sure if it's worth it (I'd love to \
switch to subversion or something else) 23:08 +(jokey) brix: discovered the same as \
me that conversion to svn is the fastest around? ;) 23:08 @(kloeri) git looks like \
it's close to impossible to do the conversion 23:08 +(brix) jokey: mercurial isn't \
bad either 23:09 +(brix) kloeri: yeah
23:09 @(kloeri) solar killed that evil power5 box doing the git conversion
23:09 +(jokey) brix: I also like svn for easy conversion on client side.. just do a \
symlink from cvs->svn and everything can continue 23:09 +(jokey) and then port apps \
step by step 23:10 +(brix) heh
23:10 +(jokey) so the real "offline" time is damn short ;)
23:12 @(kloeri) yeah, svn shouldn't be too bad
23:12 @(kloeri) some of the other contenders are horrible though when it comes to \
converting a large cvs repository 23:12 +(jokey) and with svk you also have the \
distributed thing (local commits) available if you prefer it 23:13 +(jokey) colorcvs \
up -d -P  1.07s user 0.22s system 0% cpu 1452.584 total 23:13 +(jokey) (in \
gentoo-x86)...... 23:14 +(jokey) this has to be faster ;)
23:14 +(brix) colorcvs?
23:14 +(brix) that sound... slow ;)
23:14 @(kloeri) yeah, has to color all the bits before transferring them..
23:15 +(jokey) it isn't more than a simple script which colors the output that cvs \
gives.. but doesn't cause real trouble as cvs just works on HDD and Network ;) 23:15 \
+(brix) colorcoded bits 23:15 +(jokey) 1.07 secs were used for output... compared to \
1450 total ;) 23:15 +(jokey) so less than 1% ;)
23:16 @(kloeri) colorcoded bits is a great idea for all those endian confused \
developers out there :) 23:16 +(brix) ha ha.
23:16 :: Part: padde (n=padde@unaffiliated/padde) from #gentoo-userrel-meeting []
23:16 @(kloeri) yellow bit goes to the left, next you have the orange bit, .. :)
23:17 +(brix) kloeri: boring
23:17 +(brix) kloeri: let's use a psychedelic coloring scheme
23:17 +(jokey) another point is you can sync svn via gprs ;) it just downloads the \
differences to the next revision (actually files, create a repository with FSFS and \
you can see them) ;) 23:17 @(kloeri) heh
23:17 +(brix) anyways, this is OT
23:17 +(jokey) right
23:17 +(brix) I'm out of here
23:17 +(jokey) but funny :D
23:17 +(brix) indeed :)
23:17 +(jokey) kloeri: might want to -m it here
23:17 +(brix) jokey: will you send out the summary + log?
23:18 @(kloeri) good point
23:18 +(jokey) brix: christel will
23:18 :: Mode: [-m] by kloeri on #gentoo-userrel-meeting
23:18 +(brix) christel: ok?
23:18 +(jokey) (she's a native speaker) :D
23:18 +(brix) jokey: no, she's Norweigan ;)
23:18 +(brix) she doesn't even speak her native tongue - Danish ;)
23:18 +(jokey) huh? someone told me she's over in londen
23:18  * brix runs
23:19 +(brix) jokey: she is
23:19 +(jokey) mhm ok
23:19 +(jokey) christel: maybe we need to meet for a coffee and discuss that :D
23:23  (omp) anyways, was interesting reading the whole meeting; congrats on finally \
reaching an agreement. :) 23:23 +(christel) :)
23:23 +(christel) im all for coffeeee
23:23 +(christel) and yes, ill send out summary + log 
23:24 +(brix) omp :)
23:24 +(brix) christel: goodie
23:24 +(christel) and i'm in the southwest of england (exeter) and I am norwegian :P
23:24 +(brix) who doesn't speak Danish
23:24 +(christel) but if you're in london and im around and free im quite happy to \
pop up for the day, its only a couple of hours :) 23:24 +(christel) thats true, i \
dont speak danish :p 23:24 +(christel) i understand some though
23:25 +(brix) both kloeri and are fluent in Norweigian
23:26 @(kloeri) brix: truer words have never been spoken!
23:26 +(brix) don't threaten me!
23:26 +(brix) ;)
23:27 +(christel) hehe
23:27 +(christel) well, norwegian is sort of wannabe danish :P
23:28 +(jokey) :D
23:28 +(brix) only with a better melody
23:29 :: Part: brix (n=brix@gentoo/developer/brix) from #gentoo-userrel-meeting ["so \
long - and thanks"] 23:30 :: Part: dev-zero \
(n=BerryRyd@gw.ptr-80-238-233-118.customer.ch.netstream.com) from \
#gentoo-userrel-meeting ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:30  (djay-il) that was \
                interesting
--- Log closed Sun Jun 25 00:00:46 2006


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