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List:       gentoo-dev
Subject:    [gentoo-dev] Council Meeting logs 20060309
From:       Seemant Kulleen <seemant () gentoo ! org>
Date:       2006-03-16 15:54:34
Message-ID: 20060316155434.GA28279 () toucan ! gentoo ! org
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Dear All,

I've attached the council meeting logs thanks to my proxy dsd.  I have
updated the council project page to add them there and to add a summary
of the events.  I suppose when that thar www refreshes itself on the
internets, the new content will show up.

Meanwhile...enjoy :)

Thanks,

Seemant

["20060309.txt" (text/plain)]

--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 18:22:56 2006
18:22 -!- dsd_ [n=dsd@gentoo/developer/dsd] has joined #gentoo-council
18:22 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-council: Total of 9 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 \
normal] 18:22 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-council was synced in 1 secs
18:23 -!- Halcyon [n=halcy0n@pdpc/supporter/active/Halcy0n-gentoo] has joined \
#gentoo-council 18:32 -!- cshields [n=cshields@osuosl/staff/cshields] has joined \
#gentoo-council 18:53 < dsd_> which gleps are voted on tonight?
18:53 < dsd_> 42 and 44?
18:55 <@Koon> tyhat's what I have
18:55 <@Koon> but I didn't read all gentoo-dev so I might have missed some vote \
requests 18:55 <@Koon> back in 10 minutes
18:57 <@SwifT> damned, 42 has been improved since I last read it
19:00 -!- vapier [i=UserBah@wh0rd.org] has joined #gentoo-council
19:00 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o vapier] by ChanServ
19:00 -!- Netsplit adams.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Lejban
19:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Lejban
19:02 -!- seemant [n=trinity@gentoo/developer/seemant] has joined #gentoo-council
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o seemant] by ChanServ
19:02 <@seemant> hi all, dsd_ is my proxy
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o dsd_] by seemant
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-o seemant] by seemant
19:03  * vapier touches seemant's proxy
19:03 <@Koon> vapier: proxies are not toys
19:04 -!- agriffis [n=agriffis@gentoo/developer/agriffis] has joined #gentoo-council
19:04 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o agriffis] by ChanServ
19:05 <@dsd_> abuse!
19:06 < cshields> greetings all!  I'll be standing in for solar
19:06 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o cshields] by Koon
19:06 <@SwifT> 'evening both of you
19:07 <@cshields> or morning..  ;)
19:07 <@vapier> dsd_: it's only abuse if you didnt like it
19:07 <@Koon> who wants to chair ? I may have to leave early so I prefer not to
19:08 <@vapier> i may have to jet, work has meetings on me today
19:08 <@vapier> but i think we only have the manifest2 glep today correct ?
19:08 <@SwifT> and news thingie
19:08 <@vapier> the news thing wasnt requested i thought
19:08 <@Koon> well it all depends if we consider we should vote on glep 42 too
19:08 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+m] by Koon
19:08 <@SwifT> if I can believe Koon and dsd
19:09 <@dsd_> SwifT: dont listen to me
19:09 <@vapier> lets do GLEP 44 first :P
19:09 <@Koon> easy cake: yes
19:09 <@SwifT> 1
19:09 <@vapier> i think all our maybes and such were covered sufficiently on the list
19:09 <@cshields> solar votes yes
19:09 <@Koon> anyone covering up azarah's ass ?
19:09 <@vapier> any last questions ? (and if you have one i kill you for not asking \
it on the dev list) 19:10 <@SwifT> that's blackmail
19:10 <@dsd_> i vote yes (on seemant's behalf)
19:10 <@agriffis> yes to 42
19:10 <@vapier> ok, i'll just poke you, i wont kill you :p
19:10 <@Koon> agriffis: current itam is 44
19:11 <@vapier> i'm for 42 as well
19:11 <@agriffis> I meant 44, sorry
19:11 <@vapier> adsflkajsdfl 44
19:11  * vapier blames agriffis
19:11 <@Koon> ok then we have a winner
19:12 <@Koon> up to GLEP 42, wit the traditional question: should we really vote on \
it given it's not been properly submitted 19:12 <@SwifT> oh well, no then
19:12 <@Koon> I propose that we emit an opinion and raise any question we may have, \
and pompously vote on it next month 19:13 <@cshields> solar touched on this in an \
email, but to me it seems to be missing an implementation plan.   If it is voted on \
(and approved) it may end up sitting for a while without any action.  We made a \
similar mistake with the webiste redesign vote long ago 19:13 <@Koon> cshields: \
unfortunately we cannot really enforce implementation plan 19:13 <@vapier> we can
19:13 <@Koon> it needs someone to pick it up
19:13 -!- Netsplit adams.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Lejban
19:13 <@vapier> we dont approve it w/out an implementation plan :P
19:13 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Lejban
19:14 <@cshields> Koon: you don't need to -enforce- one..  but some kind of a plan \
would be nice  :) 19:14 <@Koon> then we can emit a favorable opinion on the content \
but require some implementation details to accept it 19:14 <@cshields> I could glep \
that we all get $100k/yr for doing gentoo, and it may sound good and have rationale \
behind it, but without a plan to implement it will probably never happen  :) 19:14 \
<@Koon> I vote yes on that one 19:14 <@SwifT> who knows
19:14 <@vapier> details that the portage team is cool with ... but from genone's \
e-mails, seems they wont have much trouble with it 19:15 -!- spb \
[n=spb@gentoo/developer/spb] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15 -!- spb \
[n=spb@gentoo/developer/spb] has joined #gentoo-council 19:15 <@vapier> has infra \
weighed in on it ? 19:15 <@Koon> cshields ^
19:16 <@cshields> vapier: most of us are in favor of the concept (cause we get bit in \
the ass when something changes drastically and we're not aware..) 19:16 <@dsd_> does \
ciaran regard it as complete? there may be a reason it hasnt been properly submitted \
19:16 <@cshields> but, we aren't going to have to write the code behind it either  ;) \
19:16 <@agriffis> it looks like only goodness for infra, not much required on their \
end and lots of benefit. 19:16 <@vapier> dsd_: he posted it as "final draft"
19:16 <@Koon> dsd_: it's just a little late
19:16 <@cshields> agriffis: exactly
19:16 <@dsd_> k
19:16 <@vapier> and he said "he'd like for it to come our way soon"
19:17 <@cshields> so I guess my question is, was ciaranm's proposal such that he \
would do the work for it? 19:17 <@agriffis> anyway, it should be enough for now to \
say that we're in favor but where is the implementation plan, who is going to do the \
work, etc? 19:17 <@cshields> agreed
19:17 <@dsd_> agreed
19:18 <@Koon> yes, those precisions might raise interesting questions
19:18 <@agriffis> this is looking like a nice short meeting.
19:19 <@Koon> OK, any more comment on glep 42 ?
19:19 <@Koon> or we can open up traditional Q&A
19:19 <@vapier> i got nothin more, looks like the previous flame threads covered 42 \
well 19:20 <@Koon> I've that concern about active maintainers falling below critical \
mass as far as security work is concerned, but I guess we can put that in Q&A 19:20 \
<@Koon> ok, opening up 19:20 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-m] by Koon
19:21 <@vapier> someone mentioned that the monthly cronjob e-mail i send out is too \
late 19:21 <@vapier> i was thinking of a pre-pre-e-mail
19:21 <@Koon> good idea
19:21 <@vapier> to be sent out like the 25th of each month
19:21 <@Koon> we could send it now :)
19:21 <@SwifT> =)
19:21 <@SwifT> only two weeks until the deadline :)
19:22 <@vapier> 25th work ?
19:22 <@SwifT> so something like "deadline is today"
19:23 <@Koon> I'm a little concerned about the current state of our maintainers. I \
feel we fell below critical mass and now it takes too much time (from security PoV) \
to get fixes in. Someone proposed that a QA team with teeth could be called in that \
cases 19:23 <@Koon> we used to have a 48 hours maximal turnout to get fixed ebuilds
19:23 <@Koon> those days it's more like a week
19:24 <@vapier> so if a maintainer fails to cover a security bug within 48 hours, the \
QA team is allowed to handle it ? 19:24 <@Koon> add to that arch stableization work \
and low manpower in security... and we fall behind major distros 19:24 <@Koon> I \
don't say that's a solution, I just want to know if you noticed the same problem \
19:25 <@SwifT> is it because we are losing maintainers or because our ebuild set is \
increasing? 19:25 <@Koon> Our last solution, the hall of shame on #gentoo-dev, didn't \
solve anything :) 19:25 <@Koon> it's because we are losing active maintainers
19:25 <@Koon> (IMHO)
19:25 <@agriffis> I don't mind the idea of letting a group handle security bugs if \
the maintainer isn't paying attention, but I don't like the phrase "QA team with \
teeth" at all. 19:25 <@dsd_> fwiw, i've been thinking about the topic of opening the \
developer community recently, with the aim of increasing contribution flow. its a big \
thing to think about though 19:25 <@vapier> nobody reads /topic in channels
19:26 <@cshields> especially #-dev
19:26 <@Koon> we used to have sufficient new blood to cover maintainers going stale
19:26 <@cshields> the /topic is a novel there
19:27 <@Koon> well, security can't force maintainers to do their homework... and with \
low manpower can't hunt them down everytime 19:27 <@Koon> vapier: take the games herd \
for exmaple :P 19:27 <@vapier> yeah, i have those labeled in my TODO e-mail box :P
19:27 <@vapier> but i have a lot in that box
19:28 <@SwifT> mine is symlinked to /dev/null
19:28 <@Koon> we/I used to be sufficiently active to remind everyone passing by IRC \
to do their work... but not anymore 19:28 < Halcyon> I didn't intend on QA to fix \
security issues.  I figured the security team would handle that portion of "QA". \
19:28 <@Koon> and some people just don't pass by IRC 19:29 <@vapier> a weekly \
gentoo-dev e-mail reminder / 19:29 <@Koon> tss
19:29 < Halcyon> And you guys will have that proposal maybe by the next meeting to go \
over :)  (for the QA team) 19:29 <@Koon> that's not something that will be solved \
today, just so that you know that we are slowly falling behind 19:30 <@Koon> \
sometimes even mandriva releases advisories before us. (shame) 19:30 <@vapier> ouch
19:30 <@Koon> vapier: fedora legacy is still behind us though :)
19:31 <@Koon> and Ubuntu's always first
19:31 <@SwifT> :)
19:31 <@Koon> what would I do if I was a millionaire
19:31 <@SwifT> stop spending time with Gentoo? :)
19:32 <@Koon> OK, any more rant/question ?
19:32 <@Koon> Halcyon: about security team, we usually don't have portage commit \
rights 19:32 <@agriffis> Koon: it would be good to get a little more raw data \
regarding the stuff you're bringing up. 19:33 <@agriffis> Koon: rather than just a \
feeling, I mean numbers, averages, comparisons with other distros, typical blocking \
factors (again with numbers), etc. 19:33 <@SwifT> I wxant my 100I want my $100k
19:33 <@SwifT> err
19:33 <@SwifT> stupid network
19:34 <@cshields> SwifT: you'll have to glep that..
19:34 <@Koon> agriffis: I have a script that extracts out-of-delay GLSAs for each \
month 19:34 < Halcyon> Koon: hmm, then we might be able to work something out where \
the QA team could commit on your behalf, but we also don't have enough manpower to \
handle everything as well :) 19:34 <@Koon> We used to be 85% intime, that fell down \
to 50% and I didn't ru nthe stats for last month yet 19:34 < Halcyon> Koon: you \
publish these stats online somewhere? 19:35 <@SwifT> Koon: what about a GWN request \
for interested parties? or a security tester team? 19:35 <@Koon> the script also \
ranks the arches from most quick to slowest 19:35 < Halcyon> Koon: I'd be interested \
to see that :) 19:35 <@Koon> heh
19:35  * Koon tries to find that script again
19:36 <@cshields> I'd recommend using events like LWE to recruit people.  A lot of \
high-end users just don't realize that they too can contribute. 19:36 <@cshields> \
vapier: you'll be there, right?  ^^ 19:37 < Halcyon> There will be a few of us :)
19:37 <@agriffis> Koon: That's the kind of data I'm talking about.  Get that \
published somewhere (the data, not the script, nobody else is going to run it) and \
keep enhancing it to include more information, graphs over time, etc. 19:37 <@Koon> I \
have to do some searches to find that script. Some perl that goes iver Bugzilla \
changelogs 19:37 <@agriffis> Koon: I think that would be very interesting.
19:37 <@Koon> agriffis: ok will do
19:38 < Halcyon> Koon: I'd like to see if the x86 team helped with x86's response \
time at all. 19:38 < Halcyon> I'm sure the arch teams would like to know how well \
they are responding. 19:38 <@Koon> Halcyon: yes it did. x86 was usually not \
top-ranked, now it is 19:39 <@cshields> gentlement, I have to run.  thanks for \
letting me sit in for solar 19:39 <@vapier> i'll be at LWE
19:39 <@vapier> i gotta jet as well
19:39 <@vapier> poof
19:39 -!- vapier [i=UserBah@wh0rd.org] has left #gentoo-council []
19:40  * Koon just got that script again
19:41 <@Koon> misses a few perl modules and should be ready to go
--- Log closed Thu Mar 09 19:42:25 2006
--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 19:42:57 2006
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halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal] 19:43 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-council was synced in \
34 secs 19:43 <@Koon> argh, where the fuck is LWP-UserAgent
19:44 <@Koon> anyway I'll post more when I run those scripts
19:44 <@Koon> gtg
19:44 -!- agriffis [n=agriffis@gentoo/developer/agriffis] has left #gentoo-council []
19:44 <@Koon> someone please post the log and summary
19:45  * Koon does no logs
19:45 <@Koon> I usually prefer to forget
19:45 -!- Koon [n=koon@gentoo/developer/Koon] has quit ["*plop*"]
--- Log closed Thu Mar 09 19:49:53 2006
--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 19:50:27 2006
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 09 19:55:53 2006
--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 19:56:25 2006
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#gentoo-council 21:31 -!- FuzzyRay \
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connection] 21:36 -!- cshields [n=cshields@osuosl/staff/cshields] has left \
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..."] 22:23 -!- dsd_ [n=dsd@gentoo/developer/dsd] has left #gentoo-council []
--- Log closed Thu Mar 09 22:23:44 2006


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