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From: "Francis A. Solomon" <francis () cmlmicro ! co ! uk>
Date: 1996-07-30 10:16:33
[Download RAW message or body]
grumble
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Subject: Undeliverable Mail
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Error -- No such local user
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From: Francis Solomon <francis@cmlmicro.co.uk>
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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:35:54 -0500
To: "Deranged Mutant" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>, kvf@iconz.co.nz,
free-dos@vpro.nl
From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Subject: Re: Help System
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At 02:43 am 7/26/96 +0000, Deranged Mutant spake:
>Why not borrow from Linux's man pages? Or would piping to a text
>formatter and/or decompressor be too much for the kernel?
DOS does piping with temporary files, and does not do it from
the kernel--it's a function of command.com.
That, combined with the amount of overhead it takes to format
those archaic *roff files, and the advantages of being able to
use Hypertext in the help system, led me to want to do the small
HTML-based help system. Also, this will allow us to post our
help files on the Web.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| Author of The CGI Book -- http://www.cgibook.com/
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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 05:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Raymond W. Lucke IV" <data@droopy.flint.net>
To: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
cc: Deranged Mutant <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>, kvf@iconz.co.nz, free-dos@vpro.nl
Subject: Re: Help System
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On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, BearHeart / Bill Weinman wrote:
> DOS does piping with temporary files, and does not do it from
> the kernel--it's a function of command.com.
>
> That, combined with the amount of overhead it takes to format
> those archaic *roff files, and the advantages of being able to
> use Hypertext in the help system, led me to want to do the small
> HTML-based help system. Also, this will allow us to post our
> help files on the Web.
Well, I could port the UNIX man command, groff, and less over to DOS,
that would allow us to have a familiar and simple interface... for those
of you who do not know, groff is a text formatting tool that you pipe
data into... less is a substitute for more with more features... nobody
laugh at that last sentence. :) The nice thing about the UNIX man format
is that it has had 25 years or so to be time tested.. :)
Raymond W. Lucke IV
data@flint.net
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To: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:05:05 +0000
Subject: Borrowing code from Linux (was Re: help system)
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BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com> wrote:
> That's what I like about an HTML-based help system. It's already
> a de-facto standard. We haven't found any GPL-able hypertext help
> systems. My mini-HTML browser will be ready in a few months.
What about the 'info' help system that Linux uses? IMO there's a lot
of code that could be borrowed from Linux.
Rob
---
No-frills sig.
Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help"
Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (root@magneto)
AB1F4831 1993/05/10 Deranged Mutant <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key.
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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:03:00 -0500
To: ODO <Odo@cris.com>, "Jesse D. Sightler" <jsightle@sprynet.com>
From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Subject: Re: Help System
Cc: G Sumner Hayes <sumner+@cmu.edu>, free-dos@vpro.nl
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At 05:56 pm 7/26/96 -0400, ODO spake:
>O.k. here's my stupid question for the day.... Isn't there already a
>DOS web browser?
Ain't nothin' stupid about that question.
I haven't seen one, but if there is, and if it can be made
available with source and under the GNU license, then it would
save me some work.
--Bill
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| Author of The CGI Book -- http://www.cgibook.com/
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:54:08 -0500
To: free-dos@vpro.nl
From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Subject: Re: Help System
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At 08:50 pm 7/29/96 -0700, Raymond W. Lucke IV spake:
>We should at least give groff and man a try.... If it does not work very
>well, then we can try something else.. At least groff formatted files are
>already a standard..
We did. Last year. It didn't work. The only *roff we could
find that met all of our criteria was very buggy and we couldn't
find the author or the source code. Since then we've made a
decision on how to proceed and I've written a bunch of code.
I've already explained twice in the past week what our
train of thought was that lead us to the decisions that we
made. I'm not interested in doing it again.
I'm starting to get tired of this thread, especially when
it seems that so many are jumping in without reading everything
that went before.
This decision has already been made a long time ago. If you
all want to just throw that away and go through the same process
we already went through to come to a decision all over again, I
guess I can't stop you. But it would be nice if someone would
at least take into consideration the fact that a lot of people
have already considered all these things before, and made a decision
based on them.
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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:55:05 -0500
To: "patrick j. lustina" <76747.2012@CompuServe.COM>
From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Subject: Re: help system
Cc: <free-dos@vpro.nl>
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At 10:02 pm 7/26/96 EDT, patrick j. lustina spake:
>in re dos World Wide Wait browsers, there are at least 2;
>minuet.micro.umn.edu:/pub/minuet/latest/minuarc.exe (shareware)
Minuet is shareware. We can't use shareware with Free-DOS.
>ftp://ftp2.cc.ukans.edu/pub/WWW/DosLynx/DLX0_8A.EXE (freeware, source
>available).
I just looked up DosLynx. Two problems:
1: "DosLynx is copyrighted by the University of Kansas and is free
for instructional and research educational use. Non-educational
use will be licensed at a later date."
That won't work for our purposes.
2: It has a built-in TCP/IP stack, that cannot be disabled. It
requires the user who has another stack to disable it before
running the program.
>i've tried both; minuet is buggier. doslynx is good.
>also, version #'s on the above 2 files may have changed.
>fwiw, a help engine which uses plain-text files appeals to me more; i despise
>reading text thru html code, like the web even less, and get annoyed at having
>to strip out all the codes to get a plain-text file.
I think you're in the minority here. Most people find the Web
to be a very useful thing, and hyptertext systems to be useful
as well.
>i also don't believe in re-inventing the wheel.
That's what I like about an HTML-based help system. It's already
a de-facto standard. We haven't found any GPL-able hypertext help
systems. My mini-HTML browser will be ready in a few months.
>engine. shareware, has some limitations, but a good program nonetheless.
It's already been decided that Free-DOS will not depend on
any Shareware. Only code that can be distributed with the GPL and
with source code.
>i understand the need to attempt to create a standardized help system; i am
>perhaps being knee-jerk about anything to do with "the net", "the web", or any
>of the current computing fads sweeping the nation and causing once quiet
I'm sorry you feel that way about the Net, but it's definitely
not a fad. It's been around for over 20 years now.
I'm not suggesting that Free-DOS require an Internet connection,
just that a subset of HTML is a good choice for the help system. Actually,
it's not a suggestion anyway, I've been working on it for quite some
time now.
>newsgroups to suddenly become more noise than signal.
>if you wish to use a standard for dos help, and want it to be "internet" based,
>usenet-style readers are also an option. most of the source is pd, it is a
Internet-based was never a consideration, just a side-benefit,
and usenet-style readers are not hypertext.
--Bill
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| http://www.bearnet.com/ || http://www.weinman.com/wew/
| Author of The CGI Book -- http://www.cgibook.com/
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To: BearHeart / Bill Weinman <bearheart@bearnet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:59:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Help System
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On 26 Jul 96 at 11:35, BearHeart / Bill Weinman wrote:
> DOS does piping with temporary files, and does not do it from
> the kernel--it's a function of command.com.
I'm aware of that... which is why I wondered if it would be too much
for FreeDOS (or any other DOS).
>
> That, combined with the amount of overhead it takes to format
> those archaic *roff files, and the advantages of being able to
> use Hypertext in the help system, led me to want to do the small
> HTML-based help system. Also, this will allow us to post our
> help files on the Web.
Great idea, actually. The code could be shared with a lynx-like
utility.
Rob
---
No-frills sig.
Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help"
Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (root@magneto)
AB1F4831 1993/05/10 Deranged Mutant <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key.
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