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Subject: Re: google season of docs
From: Leslie S Satenstein <lsatenstein () yahoo ! com>
Date: 2019-03-14 17:43:01
Message-ID: 1310378063.5569636.1552585381183 () mail ! yahoo ! com
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My 78 year old opinion with 55plus years of experience.
I started documentation projects with gdoc (IBM 360 days), and later I worked with \
various static command line documentation software tools such as asciidoc, latex, \
etc. In the end, these command line tools all failed. What did work, was using \
collaboration tools built into graphical WYSIWYG tools. These tools, MS office, \
LibreOffice, WPS, other opensource and non gpl3 software, coupled with git \
repositories, worked efficiently giving the very best results and deliverable on time \
and at minimal cost. Direct output from WYSIWYG could allow a user to printed a \
file, or to download a pdf.
Every college/university student or other, learned MSoffice or Openoffice or \
LibreOffice. This is what they use to submit reports or technical papers for \
publication or to his/her professor. In industry, we used one of the mentioned \
WYSIWYG tools to do collaboration. These tools support multi-user collaboration, \
multi-user markups, multi-user comments and master/chapter documents. The author of \
the "section" could accept/reject or further modify changes and add comments. These \
tools also can generate tables of contents, indexes. It is great for rapid "desktop" \
publishing.
In my 55+ years of experience, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything \
looks like a nail. If you have Latex, then you only accept Latex input. If you \
have asciidoc, you only accept asciidoc input.
My Rant,
Where is F29 documentation? What happened to it's sparsity? Is asciidoc a tool \
used by recent graduates or others. We learn to use emails which are WYSIWYG and we \
submit proposals the same way.
How many iterations of asciidoc generation followed by minor edits does it take to \
obtain a clean document section? Who has time for command line work that takes \
10x more effort to produce a clean output? Check the git log. How many iterations \
of an asciidoc source and update to a git repository did it take to get one section \
right? And what about spellcheck? I did not see any asciidoc spellcheck or grammar \
tools. Recently I saw advertisements for Gramarly. Gramarly is a non FOSS WYSIWYG \
tool to check spelling, sentence construction and syntax. Together, with WYSIWYG, \
what would result is a great reduction of work to produce a more accurate document, \
and to deliver it on time.
In one shop I worked with msoffice. It was used to produce html output. We can do \
the same work with LibreOffice. If asciidoc is an absolute requirement, why not \
evaluate a WYSIWYG open source LibreOffice output to HTML and HTML to asciidoc? \
WYSIWYG output allows a master document organization as follows:
Master=Document include section 1 ==> chapter 1..3 document \
include section 2 ==> chapter 4 document ....... \
include Chapter n ==> chapter n-end document
I see myself as the tail that is trying to shake up the dog. And since I am not able \
to get others to overcome this hammer/nail situation, I bowed out. I am now only an \
observer to the Documentation project.
My Disappointment with the Documentation Project.
Using WYSIWYG, I spend two hundred hours correcting the Fedora 28 documentation. I \
corrected the grammar, corrected the accuracy, included omissions, and removed \
non-relevant documentation, and emailed it to the documentation group. it's gone. \
It became file13 virtual ware.
My idea.
If you want someone to contribute to documentation, they should be able to write as \
easily as I am doing, using this email interface. and then ultimately, if you have \
to, you convert their GUI output to the static asciidoc command line tool format.
Anyone within Fedora wanting to do a WYSIWYG release notes project in parallel with \
using asciidoc? Let me know. You may have me interested to contribute.
Regards
Leslie
Leslie Satenstein
Montréal Québec, Canada
On Thursday, March 14, 2019, 11:41:56 a.m. EDT, Brian (bex) Exelbierd \
<bexelbie@redhat.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 4:18 PM Petr Bokoc <pbokoc@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/12/19 11:54 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:35 AM Robert Kratky <rkratky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 03/12/2019 03:52 AM, Justin W. Flory wrote:
> > > On 3/11/19 5:37 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > > This seems like it has potential!
> > > >
> > > > https://opensource.googleblog.com/2019/03/introducing-season-of-docs.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > My personal suggestion is to wait for the program to mature before
> > > volunteering Fedora.
>
>
> My primary concern is having mentoring support and a well identified set of tasks. \
> If Petr Bokoc can take charge here then I think we can be successful. I suspect \
> that, at a minimum, we could have someone come in and do things like refactor the \
> installation guide by edition or review and update docs for the current release. \
> We should, imho, make sure this person focuses on F30, not F29 as that is what \
> should be current for most if not all of the cycle.
> I am happy to coordinate our application and work with Petr to get it done.
>
>
> That's my concern as well. Is there anyone here who has experience with GSoC? I \
> know Fedora participated before and I'm wondering about how much commitment an \
> internship like that requires - how much coaching, task tracking, that kind of \
> stuff. Bex, were you involved with that, or do you know who was?
I am happy to serve as the coordinator, as I do (with help) for GSoC
and GCI. The part I think we need an owner for is tracking tasks and
mentoring. I haven't reviewed the details, but I presume 2-4 hours a
week at the beginning and less near the end.
> I'm also concerned that any tech writer will need to interact with the wider \
> community, not just us here in docs - someone needs to give them info and \
> preferably do technical reviews as well. We'll need to make sure any relevant \
> engineering people can (and want to) do that if we go forward with this. In case of \
> the install guide I'm worried that the team is basically all Red Hatters and \
> they'll be too busy doing their normal work, but OTOH getting Red Hat engineers to \
> work with us could be easier than making sure someone from the community who only \
> contributes as a hobby will be available for significant amounts of time... I \
> dunno.
This needs to be defined by scope. I wonder if maybe we should focus
on modularity or another initiative area first. We could also ask for
docs on contributing to docs and translations to help us build a
bootstrap.
regards,
bex
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> bex
>
> >
> > >
> > > I am skeptical. My first impression is it is a technical writing
> > > certification program from Google, and open source projects act as
> > > volunteer certificate proctors.
> > >
> > > There was a long discussion about this on the Google GSoC mailing list.
> > > A key difference of Season of Docs is technical writers are not paid.
> > > This excludes a group of people in most need for professional experience
> > > and mentorship. It also sends an implied message about the value of
> > > technical writing; Season of Docs is the only Google open source program
> > > (to my knowledge) without a stipend or compensation of time (GSoC with
> > > paid stipend, GCI with sponsored trip to Google HQ).
> > >
> > > My first impression was not boarding the bandwagon yet and observing how
> > > the program matures first. I would like equal treatment for technical
> > > writing and development work before endorsing the program.
> > >
> > > My intention is not to be pessimistic, but I am disappointed this
> > > feedback seems unaccounted for in how Season of Docs is currently
> > > described and promoted.
> >
> > Hi Justin,
> >
> > Maybe the conditions have changed since you first learned about the program. The \
> > FAQ [1] says:
> > "Is Season of Docs considered an internship, a job, or any form of employment?"
> >
> > Season of Docs is an activity that the technical writer performs as an \
> > independent technical writer for which they are paid a stipend. Technical writers \
> > may choose to opt out of receiving the stipend."
> > and:
> >
> > "Will I be paid for participating in Season of Docs?
> >
> > Yes. Google will provide a stipend to those technical writers who successfully \
> > complete the program. You can choose to opt out of receiving the stipend."
> > So, maybe we could give it a thought.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Robert
> > _______________________________________________
> > docs mailing list -- docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
>
> --
> Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie@redhat.com | bex@pobox.com
> Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> docs mailing list -- docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> --
> Petr Bokoc (irc: pbokoc)
> Technical Writer
> Engineering Content Services
>
> Red Hat Czech, s. r. o.
> Purkynova 99
> 612 45 Brno, Czech Republic
>
> _______________________________________________
> docs mailing list -- docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
--
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie@redhat.com | bex@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
_______________________________________________
docs mailing list -- docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp1cbba026yahoo-style-wrap" \
style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, \
sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div>My 78 year old opinion with 55plus years of \
experience.</div><div><br></div><div>I started documentation projects with gdoc (IBM \
360 days), and later I worked with various static command line documentation software \
tools such as asciidoc, latex, etc.</div><div><br></div><div>In the end, these \
command line tools all failed. What did work, was using collaboration tools built \
into graphical WYSIWYG tools. These tools, MS office, LibreOffice, WPS, other \
opensource and non gpl3 software, coupled with git repositories, worked efficiently \
giving the very best results and deliverable on time and at minimal cost.</div><div> \
<br></div><div>Direct output from WYSIWYG could allow a user to printed a file, or to \
download <b>a pdf</b>. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Every college/university \
student or other, learned MSoffice or Openoffice or LibreOffice. This is what they \
use to submit reports or technical papers for publication or to his/her \
professor.</div><div><br></div><div>In industry, we used one of the mentioned WYSIWYG \
tools to do collaboration. These tools support<b> multi-user collaboration</b>, \
<b>multi-user markups</b>, <b>multi-user comments</b> and master/chapter \
documents. The author of the "section" could accept/reject or further modify \
changes and add comments.</div><div><br></div><div>These tools also can generate \
tables of contents, indexes. It is great for rapid "desktop" \
publishing.<br></div><div><br></div><div>In my 55+ years of experience, when the only \
tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you have \
Latex, then you only accept Latex input. If you have asciidoc, you only accept \
asciidoc input. <br></div><div><br><div><b>My Rant, \
</b><br></div><div>Where is F29 documentation? What happened to it's \
sparsity? Is asciidoc a tool used by recent graduates or others. We learn to \
use emails which are WYSIWYG and we submit proposals the same way. \
<br></div><div><br></div><div>How many iterations of asciidoc generation followed by \
minor edits does it take to obtain a clean document section? Who has time \
for command line work that takes 10x more effort to produce a clean output? \
Check the git log. How many iterations of an asciidoc source and update to a git \
repository did it take to get one section right? And what about spellcheck? I \
did not see any asciidoc spellcheck or grammar tools. Recently I saw \
advertisements for Gramarly. Gramarly is a non FOSS WYSIWYG tool to check spelling, \
sentence construction and syntax. Together, with WYSIWYG, what would result is \
a great reduction of work to produce a more accurate document, <b>and to deliver it \
on time</b>. <br></div><div> <br></div><div>In one shop I worked with msoffice. \
It was used to produce html output. We can do the same work with \
LibreOffice. If asciidoc is an absolute requirement, why not evaluate a \
WYSIWYG open source LibreOffice output to HTML and HTML to \
asciidoc?</div><div><br></div><div>WYSIWYG output allows a master document \
organization as follows:<br></div><div><br></div><div>Master=Document</div><div> \
include section 1 ==> chapter 1..3 \
document</div><div> include section \
2 ==> chapter 4 \
document</div><div> \
.......</div><div> include Chapter n \
==> chapter n-end \
document<br></div></div><div><br></div><div>I see myself as the tail that is trying \
to shake up the dog. And since I am not able to get others to overcome this \
hammer/nail situation, I bowed out. I am now only an observer to the Documentation \
project. <br></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>My Disappointment with the \
Documentation Project.<br></b></div><div>Using WYSIWYG, I spend two hundred hours \
correcting the Fedora 28 documentation. I corrected the grammar, corrected the \
accuracy, included omissions, and removed non-relevant documentation, and \
emailed it to the documentation group. it's gone. It became file13 virtual \
ware.<br></div><div><br></div><div><b>My idea.</b><br></div><div>If you want someone \
to contribute to documentation, they should be able to write as easily as I am doing, \
using this email interface. and then ultimately, if you have to, you convert their \
GUI output to the static asciidoc command line tool format. <br></div><div> \
</div><div><br></div><div>Anyone within Fedora wanting to do a WYSIWYG release notes \
project in parallel with using asciidoc? Let me know. You may have me \
interested to contribute.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div \
class="ydp1cbba026signature"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><span \
lang="FR-CA">Regards</span> <div><b><font size="2"><br></font><font \
size="2"> Leslie</font><br></b></div> <div><font color="green"><b><font \
size="1">Leslie Satenstein</font></b></font><font style="color:rgb(191, 0, 95);" \
size="1" color="green"><span style="font-weight:bold;"></span></font><br></div><font \
size="2" color="green"><b>Montréal Québec, Canada</b><br></font><br><font size="1" \
face="lucida console, sans-serif"><b \
id="ydp1cbba026yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1391351152837_28311"><font \
id="ydp1cbba026yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1391351152837_28310" color="black"><span \
id="ydp1cbba026yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1391351152837_28309" \
style="font-weight:bold;font-size:13.5pt;color:black;"></span></font></b></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydpa0153c2ayahoo_quoted_2947534408" \
class="ydpa0153c2ayahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, \
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Thursday, March 14, 2019, 11:41:56 a.m. EDT, Brian (bex) \
Exelbierd <bexelbie@redhat.com> wrote: </div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 4:18 PM Petr Bokoc <<a \
shape="rect" href="mailto:pbokoc@redhat.com" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">pbokoc@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">> On 3/12/19 11:54 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd wrote:<br \
clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> On \
Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:35 AM Robert Kratky <<a shape="rect" \
href="mailto:rkratky@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">rkratky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>><br \
clear="none">>> On 03/12/2019 03:52 AM, Justin W. Flory wrote:<br \
clear="none">>> > On 3/11/19 5:37 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:<br \
clear="none">>> >> This seems like it has potential!<br \
clear="none">>> >><br clear="none">>> >> <a shape="rect" \
href="https://opensource.googleblog.com/2019/03/introducing-season-of-docs.html" \
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://opensource.googleblog.com/2019/03/introducing-season-of-docs.html</a><br \
clear="none">>> >><br clear="none">>> ><br clear="none">>> \
> My personal suggestion is to wait for the program to mature before<br \
clear="none">>> > volunteering Fedora.<br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">><br clear="none">> My primary concern is having mentoring support \
and a well identified set of tasks. If Petr Bokoc can take charge here then I \
think we can be successful. I suspect that, at a minimum, we could have someone \
come in and do things like refactor the installation guide by edition or review and \
update docs for the current release. We should, imho, make sure this person \
focuses on F30, not F29 as that is what should be current for most if not all of the \
cycle.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> I am happy to coordinate our \
application and work with Petr to get it done.<br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">><br clear="none">> That's my concern as well. Is there anyone \
here who has experience with GSoC? I know Fedora participated before and I'm \
wondering about how much commitment an internship like that requires - how much \
coaching, task tracking, that kind of stuff. Bex, were you involved with that, or do \
you know who was?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I am happy to serve as the \
coordinator, as I do (with help) for GSoC<br clear="none">and GCI. The part I \
think we need an owner for is tracking tasks and<br clear="none">mentoring. I \
haven't reviewed the details, but I presume 2-4 hours a<br clear="none">week at the \
beginning and less near the end.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> I'm also \
concerned that any tech writer will need to interact with the wider community, not \
just us here in docs - someone needs to give them info and preferably do technical \
reviews as well. We'll need to make sure any relevant engineering people can (and \
want to) do that if we go forward with this. In case of the install guide I'm worried \
that the team is basically all Red Hatters and they'll be too busy doing their normal \
work, but OTOH getting Red Hat engineers to work with us could be easier than making \
sure someone from the community who only contributes as a hobby will be available for \
significant amounts of time... I dunno.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">This needs \
to be defined by scope. I wonder if maybe we should focus<br clear="none">on \
modularity or another initiative area first. We could also ask for<br \
clear="none">docs on contributing to docs and translations to help us build a<br \
clear="none">bootstrap.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">regards,<br clear="none"><br \
clear="none">bex<br clear="none"><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">><br clear="none">> regards,<br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">> bex<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>><br \
clear="none">>> ><br clear="none">>> > I am skeptical. My first \
impression is it is a technical writing<br clear="none">>> > certification \
program from Google, and open source projects act as<br clear="none">>> > \
volunteer certificate proctors.<br clear="none">>> ><br \
clear="none">>> > There was a long discussion about this on the Google GSoC \
mailing list.<br clear="none">>> > A key difference of Season of Docs is \
technical writers are not paid.<br clear="none">>> > This excludes a group \
of people in most need for professional experience<br clear="none">>> > and \
mentorship. It also sends an implied message about the value of<br \
clear="none">>> > technical writing; Season of Docs is the only Google open \
source program<br clear="none">>> > (to my knowledge) without a stipend or \
compensation of time (GSoC with<br clear="none">>> > paid stipend, GCI with \
sponsored trip to Google HQ).<br clear="none">>> ><br clear="none">>> \
> My first impression was not boarding the bandwagon yet and observing how<br \
clear="none">>> > the program matures first. I would like equal treatment \
for technical<br clear="none">>> > writing and development work before \
endorsing the program.<br clear="none">>> ><br clear="none">>> > My \
intention is not to be pessimistic, but I am disappointed this<br \
clear="none">>> > feedback seems unaccounted for in how Season of Docs is \
currently<br clear="none">>> > described and promoted.<br \
clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Hi Justin,<br clear="none">>><br \
clear="none">>> Maybe the conditions have changed since you first learned about \
the program. The FAQ [1] says:<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> "Is \
Season of Docs considered an internship, a job, or any form of employment?"<br \
clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Season of Docs is an activity that the \
technical writer performs as an independent technical writer for which they are paid \
a stipend. Technical writers may choose to opt out of receiving the stipend."<br \
clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> and:<br clear="none">>><br \
clear="none">>> "Will I be paid for participating in Season of Docs?<br \
clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Yes. Google will provide a stipend to \
those technical writers who successfully complete the program. You can choose to opt \
out of receiving the stipend."<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> So, \
maybe we could give it a thought.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> \
Regards,<br clear="none">>> Robert<br clear="none">>> \
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">>> docs mailing \
list -- <a shape="rect" href="mailto:docs@lists.fedoraproject.org" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">docs@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br clear="none">>> To \
unsubscribe send an email to <a shape="rect" \
href="mailto:docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br clear="none">>> \
Fedora Code of Conduct: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html</a><br \
clear="none">>> List Guidelines: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines</a><br \
clear="none">>> List Archives: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org" \
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br \
clear="none">><br clear="none">> --<br clear="none">> Brian (bex) Exelbierd \
| <a shape="rect" href="mailto:bexelbie@redhat.com" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">bexelbie@redhat.com</a> | <a shape="rect" href="mailto:bex@pobox.com" \
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bex@pobox.com</a><br clear="none">> Fedora \
Community Action & Impact Coordinator<br clear="none">> @bexelbie | <a \
shape="rect" href="http://www.winglemeyer.org" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">http://www.winglemeyer.org</a><br clear="none">><br \
clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br \
clear="none">> docs mailing list -- <a shape="rect" \
href="mailto:docs@lists.fedoraproject.org" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">docs@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br clear="none">> To unsubscribe \
send an email to <a shape="rect" href="mailto:docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org" \
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">docs-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br \
clear="none">> Fedora Code of Conduct: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html</a><br clear="none">> \
List Guidelines: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines" rel="nofollow" \
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines</a><br \
clear="none">> List Archives: <a shape="rect" \
href="https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org" \
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clear="none">><br clear="none">> --<br clear="none">> Petr Bokoc (irc: \
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