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Subject: RE: [Question] how to make Fedora linux os ?
From: "Miao, Jun" <jun.miao () intel ! com>
Date: 2023-07-28 0:55:38
Message-ID: DM6PR11MB47394FD2ADCB114135F2EB029A06A () DM6PR11MB4739 ! namprd11 ! prod ! outlook ! com
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Many kinds to me.
Although I just maintain a few of small packages and only have a curiosity to this \
tools suddenly, I got so many people serious answers. Thanks again.
Warm regards
Jun Miao
From: Stephen Smoogen <ssmoogen@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2023 7:21 PM
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <devel@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Cc: Miao, Jun <jun.miao@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Question] how to make Fedora linux os ?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 21:45, Miao, Jun \
<jun.miao@intel.com<mailto:jun.miao@intel.com>> wrote: Hi Guys,
AFAIK, the Yocto Project is an open source collaboration project that provides tools, \
templates, and methods to help developers create custom Linux-based systems for \
embedded devices.
My confusion is that:
1. what`s the tool to make our Fedora Linux 38 released like Yocto?
2. And Centos ?
3. And Ubuntu ?
I believe the Yocto system is based on a similar system as Gentoo. It was chosen \
because most embedded teams at the time were fairly small (maybe 1-2 engineers per \
'board') and setting up a multi-system pipeline was too much for getting a system \
which may only have a 'lifetime' of 1-2 years with a large amount of NDAs and other \
legal entanglements involved. It also came with the advantage that one could pick and \
choose layers to change overall design so a basic chipset could be found in a camera, \
phone, or washing machine but have different additions/subtractions done to make it \
work for each. As teams got larger, the tooling has become more complex so you can \
stand up dedicated build clusters and such but in general, a developer can figure out \
what will make something work themselves without bothering other developers.
My outsider look at Yocto OS development seems to have developers either focusing on \
specific problem sets: 'make this work on a refrigerator with this much \
memory/cpu/storage and these applications' or an overall 'layer' solution: 'Legal \
says no GPLv3 so please make sure none of them are included in an image' or 'we need \
to have one image with debug symbols and this debugger, and this image without', etc.
One problem with this style of development is that you can easily end up with 2 \
developers working on the same board but having chosen completely different \
optimizations and compile time choices that applications and libraries can not easily \
mix between the two.
The other operating systems you are looking at is aimed at a different problem where \
how do you get a large number of developers who may only focus on one bit be able to \
work with each other in a smooth as much manner. This means that the system is less \
about building the entire operating system in one location but more about makings \
sure that 400 developers can build stuff which will work together. This means that a \
developer builds only items which are for testing and developer, and then pushes \
changes to a central system which will attempt to rebuild things using choices \
(compiler options, disk layout, etc) set by either a Fedora Engineering Steering \
Committee decision or general agreement by the main maintainer of a subsystem.
The Fedora and CentOS build systems are fairly complicated with about 70 to 100 \
interrelated applications from when a developer does a build to when someone can \
download a finished package on a mirror. I have tried writing out a 'map' like a \
subway system but I usually get lost somewhere in the middle. The general solution \
is something like
[fedpkg] -> [Fedora Builders and Source Control] -> [Fedora QA] -> [Fedora Image \
Making (iso/containers/etc)] -> [Mirroring System] -> [User]
The above 'loses' a lot of granular tools in that set of items with various message \
buses, various side tools, etc. The lost granularity covers various attempts to deal \
with concurrency problems where group A is updating the entire python stack while \
group B is still building updates based on the old stack. Group A's work may take \
weeks so stopping group B during that time could lead to security issues. [There are \
many other concurrency which the community has found over the years but that was the \
first one which came to mind.]
--
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle. -- Ian \
MacClaren
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<p class="MsoNormal">Many kinds to me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="rynqvb"><span lang="EN">Although I just maintain a \
few of small packages and only have a curiosity to this tools suddenly, I got \
so many people serious answers.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span class="rynqvb"><span lang="EN">Thanks \
again.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span \
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span \
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif;color:black">Warm regards<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif;color:black">Jun Miao</span><span \
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid \
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Stephen \
Smoogen <ssmoogen@redhat.com> <br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 17, 2023 7:21 \
PM<br> <b>To:</b> Development discussions related to Fedora \
<devel@lists.fedoraproject.org><br> <b>Cc:</b> Miao, Jun \
<jun.miao@intel.com><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Question] how to make Fedora \
linux os ?<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 21:45, Miao, Jun <<a \
href="mailto:jun.miao@intel.com">jun.miao@intel.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> \
</div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in \
0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> \
<div> <div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span \
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif;color:black">Hi Guys,</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span \
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span \
class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span lang="EN">AFAIK, the Yocto Project is an \
open source collaboration project that provides tools, templates, and methods to help \
developers create custom Linux-based systems for embedded \
devices.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span \
class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span \
lang="EN"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span \
class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span lang="EN">My confusion is \
that:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p> <ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="m-8559974267119936296msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<span class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span lang="EN">what`s the tool to make our \
Fedora Linux 38 released like Yocto?</span></span><o:p></o:p></li><li \
class="m-8559974267119936296msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"> <span \
class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span lang="EN">And Centos \
?</span></span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="m-8559974267119936296msolistparagraph" \
style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"> <span class="m-8559974267119936296hgkelc"><span \
lang="EN">And Ubuntu ?</span></span><o:p></o:p></li></ol> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span \
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"IntelOne \
Text",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p> </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe the Yocto system is based on a similar system as \
Gentoo. It was chosen because most embedded teams at the time were fairly small \
(maybe 1-2 engineers per 'board') and setting up a multi-system pipeline was too much \
for getting a system which may only have a 'lifetime' of 1-2 years with a large \
amount of NDAs and other legal entanglements involved. It also came with the \
advantage that one could pick and choose layers to change overall design so a basic \
chipset could be found in a camera, phone, or washing machine but have different \
additions/subtractions done to make it work for each. As teams got larger, the \
tooling has become more complex so you can stand up dedicated build clusters and such \
but in general, a developer can figure out what will make something work themselves \
without bothering other developers.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My outsider look at Yocto OS development seems to have \
developers either focusing on specific problem sets: 'make this work on a \
refrigerator with this much memory/cpu/storage and these applications' or an overall \
'layer' solution: 'Legal says no GPLv3 so please make sure none of them are included \
in an image' or 'we need to have one image with debug symbols and this debugger, and \
this image without', etc.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One problem with this style of development is that you can \
easily end up with 2 developers working on the same board but having chosen \
completely different optimizations and compile time choices that applications and \
libraries can not easily mix between the two.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The other operating systems you are looking at is aimed at a \
different problem where how do you get a large number of developers who may only \
focus on one bit be able to work with each other in a smooth as much manner. This \
means that the system is less about building the entire operating system in one \
location but more about makings sure that 400 developers can build stuff which will \
work together. This means that a developer builds only items which are for testing \
and developer, and then pushes changes to a central system which will attempt to \
rebuild things using choices (compiler options, disk layout, etc) set by either a \
Fedora Engineering Steering Committee decision or general agreement by the main \
maintainer of a subsystem. <o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Fedora and CentOS build systems are fairly complicated with \
about 70 to 100 interrelated applications from when a developer does a build to when \
someone can download a finished package on a mirror. I have tried writing out a 'map' \
like a subway system but I usually get lost somewhere in the middle. The \
general solution is something like<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">[fedpkg] -> [Fedora Builders and Source Control] -> \
[Fedora QA] -> [Fedora Image Making (iso/containers/etc)] -> [Mirroring System] \
-> [User]<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The above 'loses' a lot of granular tools in that set of items \
with various message buses, various side tools, etc. The lost granularity \
covers various attempts to deal with concurrency problems where group A is updating \
the entire python stack while group B is still building updates based on the old \
stack. Group A's work may take weeks so stopping group B during that time could \
lead to security issues. [There are many other concurrency which the community has \
found over the years but that was the first one which came to mind.]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmailsignatureprefix">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a \
hard battle. -- Ian MacClaren<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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