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List: fedora-devel-list
Subject: Re: Fedora 33 Self-Contained Change proposal: Drop mod_php
From: "John M. Harris Jr" <johnmh () splentity ! com>
Date: 2020-07-11 5:55:31
Message-ID: 5619483.lOV4Wx5bFT () mail ! malum ! me
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On Friday, July 10, 2020 9:41:48 PM MST drago01 wrote:
> On Saturday, July 11, 2020, John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@splentity.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:43:59 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:38 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:31:08 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:26 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:14:27 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 5:56:31 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:53:26 PM MST Ben Cotton
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > > > > > mod_php (apache2handler) is an optional httpd module to
> > > > > > > > > > > execute
> > > > > > > > > > > PHP
> > > > > > > > > > > scripts, not used.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:Remi| Remi Collet]]
> > > > > > > > > > > * Email: remi at fedoraproject dot org
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > > > > > By default php-fpm is used for a few versions. mod_php
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > supported for threaded modules. mod_php usage also
> > > > > > > > > > > increases
> > > > > > > > > > > security
> > > > > > > > > > > risk, sharing the same process than httpd.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Drop mod_php from php build. This will only affect user
> >
> > of
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > httpd
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > "prefork" mode, which will also use php-fpm.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > php-fpm is already used but most users of httpd and
> > > > > > > > > > > nginx
> > > > > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The "php" package will be kept as a metapackage,
> >
> > installing
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > (weak
> > > > > > > > > > > dependencies) most commonly used extension, thus
> > > > > > > > > > > reducing
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > difference between "yum install php" (flat repository)
> >
> > and
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > "yum
> > > > > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > > install php" (modular repository).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Only provide the modern way to execute PHP in a web
> >
> > server.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PHP rebuild (mod_php build is already conditional)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > > * Release engineering: N/A
> > > > > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide
> > > > > > > > > > > Change)
> > > > > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * install and play with your web applications
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No change.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > None (dependency on "php" is already forbidden by
> > > > > > > > > > > Guidelines)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > > > > > > * revert
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change), Yes/No
> > > > > > > > > > > * Blocks product? product
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now that this has been accepted, I take it that the
> > > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > maintainer
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > mod_php no longer wants to maintain it? I'd like to offer
> >
> > to
> >
> > > > > > > > > > take
> > > > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > package if that's the case, so that Fedora will continue
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > using mod_php.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > mod_php is built from the php source tree, so no, you can't
> > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In that case, is it possible that it can just be kept in the
> > > > > > > > build,
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > that we can continue to support it? There's really not a whole
> >
> > lot
> >
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > reason to kill off something as useful and widely used as
> >
> > mod_php
> >
> > > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > > it's still working well for thousands, if not hundreds of
> > > > > > > > thousands,
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > servers, and is still the preferred backend for Apache, which
> > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > defaults to prefork upstream.>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fedora has not defaulted to prefork for Apache httpd since
> > > > > > > Fedora
> > > > > > > 27,
> > > > > > > upstream Apache httpd has not defaulted to it for even *longer*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Apache httpd switched to event mpm by default more than a decade
> > > > > > > ago
> > > > > > > (at least 12 years ago, from what I can tell, most likely
> >
> > longer!).
> >
> > > > > > > Fedora finally followed upstream on this in Fedora 27, and
> >
> > mod_php
> >
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > been broken in the default configuration since then.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But even with that, we've had PHP-FPM as the default with Apache
> > > > > > > httpd
> > > > > > > for five years now. Out of the box, that's what is set up.
> > > > > > > Nobody
> > > > > > > noticed that mod_php was broken for the past two years, and
> >
> > nobody
> >
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > had any real issues with the default PHP SAPI being switched
> > > > > > > five
> > > > > > > years ago.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At this point, the only reason to keep it is if there's
> > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > somehow absolutely cannot run with PHP-FPM but can with mod_php.
> >
> > If
> >
> > > > > > > something like that is the case, we *could* restore it as a
> > > > > > > subpackage. But it'd have to be a pretty compelling case...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Changing the defaults isn't a problem, people who have running
> > > > > > systems
> > > > > > won't be effected. This will actively break peoples' systems upon
> > > > > > update, if mod_php is dropped. It wasn't ever broken, and it's not
> > > > > > broken
> > > > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry, no. You need to be more convincing than that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless you went out of your way to change the apache configuration
> > > > > snippet we ship for apache httpd, then you would seamlessly switch
> > > > > to
> > > > > FPM as soon as you installed it and activated the service. And if
> > > > > you
> > > > > *did* go out of your way to change it, then you can go change it
> >
> > again
> >
> > > > > to work with PHP-FPM.
> > > >
> > > > My systems never had php-fpm, and certainly didn't get it upon
> >
> > upgrading.
> >
> > > > They've been running just fine for years. I don't see any reason to
> >
> > lose
> >
> > > > performance to php-fpm's overhead, and lose the stability of mod_php.
> > >
> > > What are you talking about? In almost every case I've ever seen or
> > > used, PHP-FPM is *more performant* than mod_php. I work for a company
> > > that writes an absurd amount of complex PHP software. We switched from
> > > mod_php to PHP-FPM everywhere *four years ago* for *performance* and
> > > *stability*. Decoupling the interpreter from the web server improves
> > > the reliability of the stack and makes it easier for code execution
> > > and presentation to perform at optimum levels. Moreover, it becomes
> > > possible to reuse the same FPM instance for multiple applications
> > > across multiple web servers, which is incredibly useful.
> >
> > Because of FastCGI, php-fpm adds ~1ms to every request, and I'm not the
> > only
> > one that's measured similar results. Most systems running a web server
> > only
> > run one webserver, generally either just apache or just nginx, so I don't
> > see
> > the benefit to that either.
>
> https://www.cloudways.com/blog/php-fpm-on-cloud/
>
> > > > The only system I have running with php-fpm is one where I installed a
> >
> > PHP
> >
> > > > app which is packaged in Fedora.
> > >
> > > Then just switch everything else. It's not that hard.
> >
> > Why should I have to switch the system that's being used, and potentially
> > break these servers, just because a package isn't being compiled anymore?
> > It
> > still works, and it works very well. It has less overhead than php-fpm,
> > even!
>
> It's not it's the opposite (see above) - you seem to be always opposed to
> changes in way to not even try to get the benefits of said changes.
I demonstrated how it adds ~1ms to requests. That's one of the major downsides
to using FastCGI, and it's unavoidable.
I'm against changes that will be detrimental. You'll notice that, on at least
one Change proposed for F33, I mentioned that I couldn't see anything wrong
with it, and didn't think anyone could have any issues with it. That's a +1,
effectively.
--
John M. Harris, Jr.
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