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List: fedora-devel-list
Subject: Re: Fedora 33 Self-Contained Change proposal: Drop mod_php
From: drago01 <drago01 () gmail ! com>
Date: 2020-07-11 4:41:48
Message-ID: CAMqY-FeKzrf--pjnhcHUUjxN0FKNnMo+yDSP0QJfo3Uuc+h4Vw () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Saturday, July 11, 2020, John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@splentity.com> wrote:
> On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:43:59 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:38 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:31:08 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:26 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:14:27 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 5:56:31 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:53:26 PM MST Ben Cotton wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > > > > mod_php (apache2handler) is an optional httpd module to
> > > > > > > > > > execute
> > > > > > > > > > PHP
> > > > > > > > > > scripts, not used.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:Remi| Remi Collet]]
> > > > > > > > > > * Email: remi at fedoraproject dot org
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > > > > By default php-fpm is used for a few versions. mod_php is
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > supported for threaded modules. mod_php usage also
> > > > > > > > > > increases
> > > > > > > > > > security
> > > > > > > > > > risk, sharing the same process than httpd.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Drop mod_php from php build. This will only affect user
> of
> > > > > > > > > > httpd
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > "prefork" mode, which will also use php-fpm.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > php-fpm is already used but most users of httpd and nginx
> > > > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The "php" package will be kept as a metapackage,
> installing
> > > > > > > > > > (weak
> > > > > > > > > > dependencies) most commonly used extension, thus reducing
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > difference between "yum install php" (flat repository)
> and
> > > > > > > > > > "yum
> > > > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > install php" (modular repository).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Only provide the modern way to execute PHP in a web
> server.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PHP rebuild (mod_php build is already conditional)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > * Release engineering: N/A
> > > > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * install and play with your web applications
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No change.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > None (dependency on "php" is already forbidden by
> > > > > > > > > > Guidelines)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > > > > > * revert
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change), Yes/No
> > > > > > > > > > * Blocks product? product
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now that this has been accepted, I take it that the current
> > > > > > > > > maintainer
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > mod_php no longer wants to maintain it? I'd like to offer
> to
> > > > > > > > > take
> > > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > package if that's the case, so that Fedora will continue to
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > using mod_php.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > mod_php is built from the php source tree, so no, you can't
> > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In that case, is it possible that it can just be kept in the
> > > > > > > build,
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > that we can continue to support it? There's really not a whole
> lot
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > reason to kill off something as useful and widely used as
> mod_php
> > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > it's still working well for thousands, if not hundreds of
> > > > > > > thousands,
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > servers, and is still the preferred backend for Apache, which
> > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > defaults to prefork upstream.>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fedora has not defaulted to prefork for Apache httpd since Fedora
> > > > > > 27,
> > > > > > upstream Apache httpd has not defaulted to it for even *longer*.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Apache httpd switched to event mpm by default more than a decade
> > > > > > ago
> > > > > > (at least 12 years ago, from what I can tell, most likely
> longer!).
> > > > > > Fedora finally followed upstream on this in Fedora 27, and
> mod_php
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > been broken in the default configuration since then.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But even with that, we've had PHP-FPM as the default with Apache
> > > > > > httpd
> > > > > > for five years now. Out of the box, that's what is set up. Nobody
> > > > > > noticed that mod_php was broken for the past two years, and
> nobody
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > had any real issues with the default PHP SAPI being switched five
> > > > > > years ago.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At this point, the only reason to keep it is if there's something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > somehow absolutely cannot run with PHP-FPM but can with mod_php.
> If
> > > > > > something like that is the case, we *could* restore it as a
> > > > > > subpackage. But it'd have to be a pretty compelling case...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Changing the defaults isn't a problem, people who have running
> > > > > systems
> > > > > won't be effected. This will actively break peoples' systems upon
> > > > > update, if mod_php is dropped. It wasn't ever broken, and it's not
> > > > > broken
> > > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, no. You need to be more convincing than that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Unless you went out of your way to change the apache configuration
> > > > snippet we ship for apache httpd, then you would seamlessly switch to
> > > > FPM as soon as you installed it and activated the service. And if you
> > > > *did* go out of your way to change it, then you can go change it
> again
> > > > to work with PHP-FPM.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My systems never had php-fpm, and certainly didn't get it upon
> upgrading.
> > > They've been running just fine for years. I don't see any reason to
> lose
> > > performance to php-fpm's overhead, and lose the stability of mod_php.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > What are you talking about? In almost every case I've ever seen or
> > used, PHP-FPM is *more performant* than mod_php. I work for a company
> > that writes an absurd amount of complex PHP software. We switched from
> > mod_php to PHP-FPM everywhere *four years ago* for *performance* and
> > *stability*. Decoupling the interpreter from the web server improves
> > the reliability of the stack and makes it easier for code execution
> > and presentation to perform at optimum levels. Moreover, it becomes
> > possible to reuse the same FPM instance for multiple applications
> > across multiple web servers, which is incredibly useful.
>
> Because of FastCGI, php-fpm adds ~1ms to every request, and I'm not the
> only
> one that's measured similar results. Most systems running a web server
> only
> run one webserver, generally either just apache or just nginx, so I don't
> see
> the benefit to that either.
https://www.cloudways.com/blog/php-fpm-on-cloud/
> > > The only system I have running with php-fpm is one where I installed a
> PHP
> > > app which is packaged in Fedora.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Then just switch everything else. It's not that hard.
>
> Why should I have to switch the system that's being used, and potentially
> break these servers, just because a package isn't being compiled anymore?
> It
> still works, and it works very well. It has less overhead than php-fpm,
> even!
>
>
It's not it's the opposite (see above) - you seem to be always opposed to
changes in way to not even try to get the benefits of said changes.
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<br><br>On Saturday, July 11, 2020, John M. Harris Jr <<a \
href="mailto:johnmh@splentity.com">johnmh@splentity.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On \
Friday, July 10, 2020 6:43:59 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:<br> > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:38 PM \
John M. Harris Jr <<a href="mailto:johnmh@splentity.com">johnmh@splentity.com</a>><br> \
> wrote:<br> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:31:08 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:26 PM John M. Harris Jr<br>
> > > <<a href="mailto:johnmh@splentity.com">johnmh@splentity.com</a>><br>
> > > wrote:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:14:27 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 PM John M. Harris Jr<br>
> > > > > <<a \
href="mailto:johnmh@splentity.com">johnmh@splentity.com</a>><br> > > > > > \
wrote:<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 5:56:31 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:<br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John M. Harris Jr<br>
> > > > > > > <<a \
href="mailto:johnmh@splentity.com">johnmh@splentity.com</a>><br> > > > > > \
> > wrote:<br> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:53:26 PM MST Ben Cotton \
wrote:<br> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > <a \
href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php" \
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/<wbr>wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php</a><br> > > > \
> > > > > ><br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Summary ==<br>
> > > > > > > > > mod_php (apache2handler) is an optional httpd \
module to<br> > > > > > > > > > execute<br>
> > > > > > > > > PHP<br>
> > > > > > > > > scripts, not used.<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Owner ==<br>
> > > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:Remi| Remi Collet]]<br>
> > > > > > > > > * Email: remi at fedoraproject dot org<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==<br>
> > > > > > > > > By default php-fpm is used for a few versions. \
mod_php is<br> > > > > > > > > > not<br>
> > > > > > > > > supported for threaded modules. mod_php usage \
also<br> > > > > > > > > > increases<br>
> > > > > > > > > security<br>
> > > > > > > > > risk, sharing the same process than httpd.<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > Drop mod_php from php build. This will only affect \
user of<br> > > > > > > > > > httpd<br>
> > > > > > > > > in<br>
> > > > > > > > > "prefork" mode, which will also use \
php-fpm.<br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > php-fpm is already used but most users of httpd \
and nginx<br> > > > > > > > > > without<br>
> > > > > > > > > any<br>
> > > > > > > > > issue.<br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > The "php" package will be kept as a \
metapackage, installing<br> > > > > > > > > > (weak<br>
> > > > > > > > > dependencies) most commonly used extension, thus \
reducing<br> > > > > > > > > > the<br>
> > > > > > > > > difference between "yum install php" \
(flat repository) and<br> > > > > > > > > > "yum<br>
> > > > > > > > > module<br>
> > > > > > > > > install php" (modular repository).<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > Only provide the modern way to execute PHP in a \
web server.<br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Scope ==<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > PHP rebuild (mod_php build is already \
conditional)<br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > * Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide \
Change)<br> > > > > > > > > > * Release engineering: N/A<br>
> > > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide \
Change)<br> > > > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed \
for this Change)<br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==<br>
> > > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == How To Test ==<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > * install and play with your web applications<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == User Experience ==<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > No change.<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Dependencies ==<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > None (dependency on "php" is already \
forbidden by<br> > > > > > > > > > Guidelines)<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==<br>
> > > > > > > > > * revert<br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide \
Change)<br> > > > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System \
Wide Change), Yes/No<br> > > > > > > > > > * Blocks product? \
product<br> > > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > > == Documentation ==<br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > > Now that this has been accepted, I take it that the \
current<br> > > > > > > > > maintainer<br>
> > > > > > > > of<br>
> > > > > > > > mod_php no longer wants to maintain it? I'd like to \
offer to<br> > > > > > > > > take<br>
> > > > > > > > over<br>
> > > > > > > > the<br>
> > > > > > > > package if that's the case, so that Fedora will \
continue to<br> > > > > > > > > work<br>
> > > > > > > > for<br>
> > > > > > > > those<br>
> > > > > > > > using mod_php.<br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > > mod_php is built from the php source tree, so no, you \
can't<br> > > > > > > > really<br>
> > > > > > > do<br>
> > > > > > > that.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > > In that case, is it possible that it can just be kept in the<br>
> > > > > > build,<br>
> > > > > > so<br>
> > > > > > that we can continue to support it? There's really not a \
whole lot<br> > > > > > > of<br>
> > > > > > reason to kill off something as useful and widely used as \
mod_php<br> > > > > > > while<br>
> > > > > > it's still working well for thousands, if not hundreds of<br>
> > > > > > thousands,<br>
> > > > > > of<br>
> > > > > > servers, and is still the preferred backend for Apache, which<br>
> > > > > > even<br>
> > > > > > defaults to prefork upstream.><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Fedora has not defaulted to prefork for Apache httpd since Fedora<br>
> > > > > 27,<br>
> > > > > upstream Apache httpd has not defaulted to it for even *longer*.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Apache httpd switched to event mpm by default more than a decade<br>
> > > > > ago<br>
> > > > > (at least 12 years ago, from what I can tell, most likely \
longer!).<br> > > > > > Fedora finally followed upstream on this in Fedora 27, \
and mod_php<br> > > > > > has<br>
> > > > > been broken in the default configuration since then.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > But even with that, we've had PHP-FPM as the default with \
Apache<br> > > > > > httpd<br>
> > > > > for five years now. Out of the box, that's what is set up. \
Nobody<br> > > > > > noticed that mod_php was broken for the past two years, and \
nobody<br> > > > > > has<br>
> > > > > had any real issues with the default PHP SAPI being switched five<br>
> > > > > years ago.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > At this point, the only reason to keep it is if there's \
something<br> > > > > > that<br>
> > > > > somehow absolutely cannot run with PHP-FPM but can with mod_php. \
If<br> > > > > > something like that is the case, we *could* restore it as a<br>
> > > > > subpackage. But it'd have to be a pretty compelling case...<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Changing the defaults isn't a problem, people who have running<br>
> > > > systems<br>
> > > > won't be effected. This will actively break peoples' systems \
upon<br> > > > > update, if mod_php is dropped. It wasn't ever broken, and \
it's not<br> > > > > broken<br>
> > > > now.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Sorry, no. You need to be more convincing than that.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Unless you went out of your way to change the apache configuration<br>
> > > snippet we ship for apache httpd, then you would seamlessly switch to<br>
> > > FPM as soon as you installed it and activated the service. And if you<br>
> > > *did* go out of your way to change it, then you can go change it again<br>
> > > to work with PHP-FPM.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > My systems never had php-fpm, and certainly didn't get it upon upgrading.<br>
> > They've been running just fine for years. I don't see any reason to lose<br>
> > performance to php-fpm's overhead, and lose the stability of mod_php.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> What are you talking about? In almost every case I've ever seen or<br>
> used, PHP-FPM is *more performant* than mod_php. I work for a company<br>
> that writes an absurd amount of complex PHP software. We switched from<br>
> mod_php to PHP-FPM everywhere *four years ago* for *performance* and<br>
> *stability*. Decoupling the interpreter from the web server improves<br>
> the reliability of the stack and makes it easier for code execution<br>
> and presentation to perform at optimum levels. Moreover, it becomes<br>
> possible to reuse the same FPM instance for multiple applications<br>
> across multiple web servers, which is incredibly useful.<br>
<br>
Because of FastCGI, php-fpm adds ~1ms to every request, and I'm not the only <br>
one that's measured similar results. Most systems running a web server only <br>
run one webserver, generally either just apache or just nginx, so I don't see <br>
the benefit to that either.</blockquote><div><br></div><div> <a \
href="https://www.cloudways.com/blog/php-fpm-on-cloud/">https://www.cloudways.com/blog/php-fpm-on-cloud/</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br>
> > The only system I have running with php-fpm is one where I installed a PHP<br>
> > app which is packaged in Fedora.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Then just switch everything else. It's not that hard.<br>
<br>
Why should I have to switch the system that's being used, and potentially <br>
break these servers, just because a package isn't being compiled anymore? It <br>
still works, and it works very well. It has less overhead than php-fpm, even!<br><br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's not it's the opposite (see above) - you seem to \
be always opposed to changes in way to not even try to get the benefits of said changes. \
</div>
[Attachment #6 (text/plain)]
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