'Re: Fedora 33 Self-Contained Change proposal: Drop mod_php'

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List:       fedora-devel-list
Subject:    Re: Fedora 33 Self-Contained Change proposal: Drop mod_php
From:       "John M. Harris Jr" <johnmh () splentity ! com>
Date:       2020-07-11 1:38:10
Message-ID: 3025508.aV6nBDHxoP () mail ! malum ! me
[Download RAW message or body]

On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:31:08 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:26 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@splentity.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:14:27 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 5:56:31 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John M. Harris Jr
> > > > > <johnmh@splentity.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:53:26 PM MST Ben Cotton wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > mod_php (apache2handler) is an optional httpd module to execute
> > > > > > > PHP
> > > > > > > scripts, not used.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > * Name: [[User:Remi| Remi Collet]]
> > > > > > > * Email: remi at fedoraproject dot org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > By default php-fpm is used for a few versions. mod_php is not
> > > > > > > supported for threaded modules. mod_php usage also increases
> > > > > > > security
> > > > > > > risk, sharing the same process than httpd.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Drop mod_php from php build. This will only affect user of httpd
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > "prefork" mode, which will also use php-fpm.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > php-fpm is already used but most users of httpd and nginx
> > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The "php" package will be kept as a metapackage, installing
> > > > > > > (weak
> > > > > > > dependencies) most commonly used extension, thus reducing the
> > > > > > > difference between "yum install php" (flat repository) and "yum
> > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > install php" (modular repository).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Only provide the modern way to execute PHP in a web server.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PHP rebuild (mod_php build is already conditional)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > * Release engineering:  N/A
> > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * install and play with your web applications
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No change.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > None (dependency on "php" is already forbidden by Guidelines)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > > * revert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change), Yes/No
> > > > > > > * Blocks product? product
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that this has been accepted, I take it that the current
> > > > > > maintainer
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > mod_php no longer wants to maintain it? I'd like to offer to take
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > package if that's the case, so that Fedora will continue to work
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > using mod_php.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > mod_php is built from the php source tree, so no, you can't really
> > > > > do
> > > > > that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In that case, is it possible that it can just be kept in the build,
> > > > so
> > > > that we can continue to support it? There's really not a whole lot of
> > > > reason to kill off something as useful and widely used as mod_php
> > > > while
> > > > it's still working well for thousands, if not hundreds of thousands,
> > > > of
> > > > servers, and is still the preferred backend for Apache, which even
> > > > defaults to prefork upstream.>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fedora has not defaulted to prefork for Apache httpd since Fedora 27,
> > > upstream Apache httpd has not defaulted to it for even *longer*.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Apache httpd switched to event mpm by default more than a decade ago
> > > (at least 12 years ago, from what I can tell, most likely longer!).
> > > Fedora finally followed upstream on this in Fedora 27, and mod_php has
> > > been broken in the default configuration since then.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But even with that, we've had PHP-FPM as the default with Apache httpd
> > > for five years now. Out of the box, that's what is set up. Nobody
> > > noticed that mod_php was broken for the past two years, and nobody has
> > > had any real issues with the default PHP SAPI being switched five
> > > years ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At this point, the only reason to keep it is if there's something that
> > > somehow absolutely cannot run with PHP-FPM but can with mod_php. If
> > > something like that is the case, we *could* restore it as a
> > > subpackage. But it'd have to be a pretty compelling case...
> >
> >
> >
> > Changing the defaults isn't a problem, people who have running systems
> > won't be effected. This will actively break peoples' systems upon
> > update, if mod_php is dropped. It wasn't ever broken, and it's not broken
> > now.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Sorry, no. You need to be more convincing than that.
> 
> Unless you went out of your way to change the apache configuration
> snippet we ship for apache httpd, then you would seamlessly switch to
> FPM as soon as you installed it and activated the service. And if you
> *did* go out of your way to change it, then you can go change it again
> to work with PHP-FPM.

My systems never had php-fpm, and certainly didn't get it upon upgrading. 
They've been running just fine for years. I don't see any reason to lose 
performance to php-fpm's overhead, and lose the stability of mod_php.

The only system I have running with php-fpm is one where I installed a PHP app 
which is packaged in Fedora.

Again, there's no technical debt kept by just continuing to build and ship 
mod_php. I'm not asking you to provide support for it, and I'm happy to tackle 
any bugs found with it, not that I suspect there will be any.  I'm far from 
the only user that has systems still running on mod_php. If this goes through, 
upon upgrade to Fedora 33, these users' systems will cease to function 
properly.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr.

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