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List: extremeprogramming
Subject: Re: [XP] XP is a philosophy not a religion
From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries () acm ! org>
Date: 2009-10-29 14:09:27
Message-ID: 1747614696.20091029100927 () acm ! org
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Hello, zdnfa. On Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 4:53:07 AM, you
wrote:
> After being in the community for a couple of months I found that
> we are more extreme than I expected.
Excellent ...
> I think that XP is a philosophy and not a religion! The
> difference is that the first keeps developing and the other does not.
I'm not sure I agree with the distinction, but certainly XP and our
understanding of it keeps developing.
> When we first introduced the idea of developing the process of XP
> we had the following ideas:
> • Kent Beck said that XP does not work well with big
> projects (20 or more programmers).
> Our mission is to tune XP so that it fits any project whether
> small or big. We said before that in order to do that we need to
> adjust the method of communication used so that to emphasize more
> documentation in big projects and to enhance the user stories by
> relying on more formal analysis phase per one release, supported
> with signed documents (models, texts, or the like).
Nothing works as well with large projects as it does with small
ones. I see no reason why a large project couldn't add more
documents if it chose to, other than the well known fact that
written material loses a high percentage of understanding compared
to face to face discussion.
I also see no reason why one would call such a process "XP". If I
were looking for some kind of pluggable / tunable process, I would
consider Crystal by Alistair Cockburn, which is set up to be scaled.
I'm not looking for such a thing, personally. I think that each
project does need to have a process fitted to it but I also think
that every element added to a written process begins to burden all
instances.
Suppose that "XP" called for "written documents for large projects".
Some reason would be offered. Then, anyone considering XP would find
themselves in a position of having to take a chance on doing what XP
actually recommends, instead of adding in all the bits for "large"
projects. That would, in my opinion, be bad.
> • The literature is filled with the comment "tacit knowledge is
> more emphasized than explicit knowledge in XP" (see for example
> what Boehm and Turner say in this regard).
The literature is emphatically not filled with that comment. It does
appear sometimes. What is emphasized in XP is communication.
Common knowledge is the result of communication.
> We think that this is true and we need to strike a balance between
> the two. For example, we think that on-site customer is very
> important for sharing tacit knowledge, but are we sure we will
> find a full time customer who is able to answer all types of
> questions especially in big projects.
XP says to have one. If a team doesn't have one, the team is not
doing what XP recommends.
> (We used the modified XP
> (i.e. introducing an analysis phase per one release and using more
> documentations than just relying on code and test cases) in
> developing a tax system for a country that has little experience
> in IT and taxation, which means more BPR, new decrees, new
> structures and so on.
There is no "authorized" modification of XP with this "phase", so
far as I know.
> Do you think using coding standards and test
> cases only would work?
I think it would work better than some process that assumed from the
outset that they would not work. I think a team working with those
practices, and the other XP practices, would /discover/ what specific
other materials /that specific team/ needed. Legislating those
matters cannot be better than choosing things that are actually
found to be needed.
> • There were a couple of attempts to modify
> XP for such situations, such as what Menzo did in his Code
> Science, XPRINCE2 of Nawrocki, and Martin's dx.
The success of the first two speaks for itself. Martin's dx, as far
as I know, was not substantially different from XP. It was a cute
naming trick and little more.
> The surprise for
> us was not rejecting our ideas, but the way they were rejected. We
> are not saying our ideas are correct –not at all- but the comments
> we got, such as describing Kent as a positivist just for welcoming
> our trial and questioning its applicability. For a newcomer to the
> community, this was a shock and really frustrated me
Why are you shocked and frustrated by someone's description of Kent,
if in fact anyone described Kent as a positivist?
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
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<p>Hello, zdnfa. On Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 4:53:07 AM, \
you<br> wrote:<br>
<br>
> After being in the community for a couple of months I found that<br>
> we are more extreme than I expected.<br>
<br>
Excellent ...<br>
<br>
> I think that XP is a philosophy and not a religion! The<br>
> difference is that the first keeps developing and the other does not.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure I agree with the distinction, but certainly XP and our<br>
understanding of it keeps developing.<br>
<br>
> When we first introduced the idea of developing the process of XP<br>
> we had the following ideas:<br>
<br>
> • Kent Beck said that XP does not work well with big<br>
> projects (20 or more programmers)<wbr>.<br>
<br>
> Our mission is to tune XP so that it fits any project whether<br>
> small or big. We said before that in order to do that we need to<br>
> adjust the method of communication used so that to emphasize more<br>
> documentation in big projects and to enhance the user stories by<br>
> relying on more formal analysis phase per one release, supported<br>
> with signed documents (models, texts, or the like).<br>
<br>
Nothing works as well with large projects as it does with small<br>
ones. I see no reason why a large project couldn't add more<br>
documents if it chose to, other than the well known fact that<br>
written material loses a high percentage of understanding compared<br>
to face to face discussion.<br>
<br>
I also see no reason why one would call such a process "XP". If I<br>
were looking for some kind of pluggable / tunable process, I would<br>
consider Crystal by Alistair Cockburn, which is set up to be scaled.<br>
<br>
I'm not looking for such a thing, personally. I think that each<br>
project does need to have a process fitted to it but I also think<br>
that every element added to a written process begins to burden all<br>
instances.<br>
<br>
Suppose that "XP" called for "written documents for large \
projects".<br> Some reason would be offered. Then, anyone considering XP would \
find<br> themselves in a position of having to take a chance on doing what XP<br>
actually recommends, instead of adding in all the bits for "large"<br>
projects. That would, in my opinion, be bad.<br>
<br>
> • The literature is filled with the comment "tacit knowledge is<br>
> more emphasized than explicit knowledge in XP" (see for example<br>
> what Boehm and Turner say in this regard).<br>
<br>
The literature is emphatically not filled with that comment. It does<br>
appear sometimes. What is emphasized in XP is communication.<br>
Common knowledge is the result of communication.<br>
<br>
> We think that this is true and we need to strike a balance between<br>
> the two. For example, we think that on-site customer is very<br>
> important for sharing tacit knowledge, but are we sure we will<br>
> find a full time customer who is able to answer all types of<br>
> questions especially in big projects.<br>
<br>
XP says to have one. If a team doesn't have one, the team is not<br>
doing what XP recommends.<br>
<br>
> (We used the modified XP<br>
> (i.e. introducing an analysis phase per one release and using more<br>
> documentations than just relying on code and test cases) in<br>
> developing a tax system for a country that has little experience<br>
> in IT and taxation, which means more BPR, new decrees, new<br>
> structures and so on.<br>
<br>
There is no "authorized" modification of XP with this "phase", \
so<br> far as I know.<br>
<br>
> Do you think using coding standards and test<br>
> cases only would work?<br>
<br>
I think it would work better than some process that assumed from the<br>
outset that they would not work. I think a team working with those<br>
practices, and the other XP practices, would /discover/ what specific<br>
other materials /that specific team/ needed. Legislating those<br>
matters cannot be better than choosing things that are actually<br>
found to be needed.<br>
<br>
> • There were a couple of attempts to modify<br>
> XP for such situations, such as what Menzo did in his Code<br>
> Science, XPRINCE2 of Nawrocki, and Martin's dx.<br>
<br>
The success of the first two speaks for itself. Martin's dx, as far<br>
as I know, was not substantially different from XP. It was a cute<br>
naming trick and little more.<br>
<br>
> The surprise for<br>
> us was not rejecting our ideas, but the way they were rejected. We<br>
> are not saying our ideas are correct –not at all- but the comments<br>
> we got, such as describing Kent as a positivist just for welcoming<br>
> our trial and questioning its applicability. For a newcomer to the<br>
> community, this was a shock and really frustrated me<br>
<br>
Why are you shocked and frustrated by someone's description of Kent,<br>
if in fact anyone described Kent as a positivist?<br>
<br>
Ron Jeffries<br>
www.XProgramming.<wbr>com<br>
www.xprogramming.<wbr>com/blog<br>
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso<br>
<br>
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text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
font-weight: normal;
color: #000000;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.photo-title a,
div.photo-title a:active,
div.photo-title a:hover,
div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.file-title a,
div.file-title a:active,
div.file-title a:hover,
div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count {
clear: both;
padding: 15px 0 3px 0;
overflow: hidden;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: bold;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg a {
color: #1E66AE;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->
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