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List: extremeprogramming
Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas
From: "Kent Beck" <kentb () earthlink ! net>
Date: 2008-01-31 14:49:15
Message-ID: 006801c86418$76a3d420$6701a8c0 () kentspavilion
[Download RAW message or body]
Michael,
I said that ironically because I'd just turned 40. I only had one year left
:-) Now it's too late.
As far as who to trust, there are many reasons to trust or distrust advice.
Freshness of experience is one issue. So is breadth of experience. So is
context and perspective. But the biggest issue for me is integrity. I trust
advice from people who speak from the heart, who don't show signs that they
are working for their own purposes without regard to mine, who do what they
say they will do.
One thing I like about the Poppendiecks' books is that I get the sense that
they talk about things they know well and they don't talk about things they
don't know well. It's not like they are saying, [putting on crochety old
person voice] "I don't know why you punks think you need these dad-blamed
new-fangled screen editors. Line editors were good enough for my pappy,
they're good enough for me, and they're doggone well good enough for you."
They talk about the context of software development, and that context hasn't
changed since the beginning of commercial programming.
I learn more from a conversation with an obsolete programmer with integrity
than I do from the latest hotshot who's got a bunch of games going on that
have nothing to do with the topic.
Cheers,
Kent
_____
From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael KENNY
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:34 AM
To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:01 -0500, you wrote:
Ron,
As Kent said at the keynote for XP2001(or 2) you have to distrust
advice given by the over 40s.
>Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You
>ranked her advice as to be "doubted", not even "considered".
To be clear, my intention was not to be disrespectful, particularly
not to Mary. I do apologise if I caused offence.
Doubt is healthy, especially when following Advice is going to be
linked to a great deal of effort. It also depends what you have to
believe.
>That seems to me to be less than respectful to say, even if it
>happens to be what you're going to do.
That's why I'm reading the book, asking questions, trying to
understand, right?
>And in the case of Mary Poppendieck, my advice would be that people
>should "consider carefully", not "doubt".
Perhaps we can agree on slightly different words.
In the case of Lean, the fact is that manufacturing has all but
disappeared, and what survives is often heavily subsidised.
For all the words and theory you have to ask which lesson you are
learning.
Michael
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<p>Michael,<br>
<br>
I said that ironically because I'd just turned 40. I only had one year left<br>
> -) Now it's too late.<br>
<br>
As far as who to trust, there are many reasons to trust or distrust advice.<br>
Freshness of experience is one issue. So is breadth of experience. So is<br>
context and perspective. But the biggest issue for me is integrity. I trust<br>
advice from people who speak from the heart, who don't show signs that they<br>
are working for their own purposes without regard to mine, who do what they<br>
say they will do.<br>
<br>
One thing I like about the Poppendiecks' books is that I get the sense that<br>
they talk about things they know well and they don't talk about things they<br>
don't know well. It's not like they are saying, [putting on crochety old<br>
person voice] "I don't know why you punks think you need these dad-blamed<br>
new-fangled screen editors. Line editors were good enough for my pappy,<br>
they're good enough for me, and they're doggone well good enough for you."<br>
They talk about the context of software development, and that context hasn't<br>
changed since the beginning of commercial programming.<br>
<br>
I learn more from a conversation with an obsolete programmer with integrity<br>
than I do from the latest hotshot who's got a bunch of games going on that<br>
have nothing to do with the topic.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Kent<br>
<br>
_____ <br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com">extremeprogramming@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com">extremeprogramming@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>] \
On Behalf Of Michael KENNY<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:34 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com">extremeprogramming@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas<br>
<br>
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:01 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<br>
Ron,<br>
<br>
As Kent said at the keynote for XP2001(or 2) you have to distrust<br>
advice given by the over 40s.<br>
<br>
>Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You<br>
>ranked her advice as to be "doubted", not even \
"considered"<wbr>.<br> To be clear, my intention was not to be \
disrespectful, particularly<br> not to Mary. I do apologise if I caused offence.<br>
<br>
Doubt is healthy, especially when following Advice is going to be<br>
linked to a great deal of effort. It also depends what you have to<br>
believe.<br>
<br>
>That seems to me to be less than respectful to say, even if it<br>
>happens to be what you're going to do.<br>
That's why I'm reading the book, asking questions, trying to<br>
understand, right?<br>
<br>
>And in the case of Mary Poppendieck, my advice would be that people<br>
>should "consider carefully", not "doubt".<br>
Perhaps we can agree on slightly different words.<br>
<br>
In the case of Lean, the fact is that manufacturing has all but<br>
disappeared, and what survives is often heavily subsidised. <br>
For all the words and theory you have to ask which lesson you are<br>
learning. <br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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