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List: extremeprogramming
Subject: Re: [XP] Group vote for C unit testing framework
From: "stephendicks" <stephen () starswan ! com>
Date: 2008-01-29 11:06:48
Message-ID: fnn1c8+duue () eGroups ! com
[Download RAW message or body]
--- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, David Carlton <carlton@...>
wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:06:08 +1300 (NZDT), John Carter
<john.carter@...> said:
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, David Carlton wrote:
> >> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:42:40 +1300 (NZDT), John Carter
<john.carter@...> said:
>
> >>> Hint: Control of the build environment is handy. Instead of using
> >>> "make" which doesn't really give you all that much you care about
> >>> anyway...knock up your own using a rich scripting language like Ruby
> >>> or Python.
> >>
> >> ? Make knows all about all sorts of handy dependency rules which are
> >> very well suited for C and its derivatives; I wouldn't dream of
> >> hand-rolling something else, if that's what you're suggesting. I
> >> don't know what compiler the original poster is using, but GCC will
> >> even spit out appropriate make dependencies, making it extremely easy
> >> to write a safe, parallelizable Makefile for C code, in many common
> >> situations.
>
> > Actually every large commercial make file I've seen has been about
> > 20% make and a mish-mash of shell, awk, grep and other darker things
> > (eg. .bat) for the rest. Trying to work out the various levels of
> > quote stripping between make,shell and awk can be entertaining at
> > the least!
>
> To give a bit more context, I'm rather fond of make, and part of the
> reason why I'm fond is that I've spent time taking crap Makefiles and
> turning them into Makefiles that are shorter, have fewer bugs, and are
> more parallelizable. (With help from gcc -MD -MP and ideas in
> <http://make.paulandlesley.org/autodep.html>.) At the core, it seems
> to be a reasonable language for handling dependencies in a way that
> can easily handle typical tasks for C and its derivatives on Unix
> systems, which happens to be a situation where I spend some amount of
> time.
>
> And, to give a bit more context, the only other build language that
> I've used is ant (for a Java project); as far as I can tell, it gets
> dependencies wrong, which I'd previously assumed was the single core
> competency of anything that would call itself a build language. I
> still tentatively assume that I must be missing something big there,
> but I'm still a bit jaundiced towards other solutions. :-)
>
> Having said that, I should look at rake and scons; I agree that, all
> else being equal, I'd like my build system to be integrated with a
> pleasant scripting language, and make isn't that.
>
> John Roth mentioned rake and scons. Looking at the online
> documentation, though, rake doesn't seem to be anywhere near ready for
> prime time for C programming: I don't see any discussion of C issues,
> and running "rake --help" doesn't mention anything about
> parallelization, which would be an absolute show-stopper for me.
>
> scons looks more interesting, though: it looks rather more
> fully-featured, the man page mentions parallelization, so it would
> probably work. I don't know for sure if it will get automatic
> dependency generation completely right, but it might, and even if it
> doesn't, it might be close enough that its other virtues outweigh that
> drawback. I would certainly play around with it, and (if the results
> were good) it would be quite natural to use it if there was enough
> Python knowledge on the project. (Or maybe even if there wasn't -
> it's not like make gurus are falling off of every tree, after all.)
I finally 'got around' to using Scons last year. Try it - you will
never go back to 'make' again. The only drawback(s) that I've found so
far are:
Scons scripts are fully-fledged programs, so they can become overly
complex (certainly my first attempts needed some refactoring, and my
2nd and 3rd ones were improvements on the 1st).
It is 'only' a build tool - you cannot trivially (at least I couldnt
work it out) how to emulate 'make test' type behaviour where the tests
are built and then run - I still used 'make' as a trivial controller.
The documentation suggests a 'copy and build' approach, which works
fine but can be confusing if you get a syntax error, as the 'compiled'
source is a 'copy' (a writable copy at that) which should not of
course be edited. [This style is not compulsory - a colleague used it
by following the documentation]
>
> David Carlton
> carlton@...
>
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<p>--- In <a \
href="mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com">extremeprogramming@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, \
David Carlton <carlton@...<wbr>><br> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:06:08 +1300 (NZDT), John Carter<br>
<john.carter@<wbr>...> said:<br>
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, David Carlton wrote:<br>
> >> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:42:40 +1300 (NZDT), John Carter<br>
<john.carter@<wbr>...> said:<br>
> <br>
> >>> Hint: Control of the build environment is handy. Instead of \
using<br> > >>> "make" which doesn't really give you all that \
much you care about<br> > >>> anyway...knock up your own using a rich \
scripting language like Ruby<br> > >>> or Python.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> ? Make knows all about all sorts of handy dependency rules which \
are<br> > >> very well suited for C and its derivatives; I wouldn't dream \
of<br> > >> hand-rolling something else, if that's what you're suggesting. \
I<br> > >> don't know what compiler the original poster is using, but GCC \
will<br> > >> even spit out appropriate make dependencies, making it \
extremely easy<br> > >> to write a safe, parallelizable Makefile for C code, \
in many common<br> > >> situations.<br>
> <br>
> > Actually every large commercial make file I've seen has been about<br>
> > 20% make and a mish-mash of shell, awk, grep and other darker things<br>
> > (eg. .bat) for the rest. Trying to work out the various levels of<br>
> > quote stripping between make,shell and awk can be entertaining at<br>
> > the least!<br>
> <br>
> To give a bit more context, I'm rather fond of make, and part of the<br>
> reason why I'm fond is that I've spent time taking crap Makefiles and<br>
> turning them into Makefiles that are shorter, have fewer bugs, and are<br>
> more parallelizable. (With help from gcc -MD -MP and ideas in<br>
> <<a href="http://make.paulandlesley.org/autodep.html">http://make.<wbr>paulandlesley.<wbr>org/autodep.<wbr>html</a>>.) \
At the core, it seems<br> > to be a reasonable language for handling dependencies \
in a way that<br> > can easily handle typical tasks for C and its derivatives on \
Unix<br> > systems, which happens to be a situation where I spend some amount \
of<br> > time.<br>
> <br>
> And, to give a bit more context, the only other build language that<br>
> I've used is ant (for a Java project); as far as I can tell, it gets<br>
> dependencies wrong, which I'd previously assumed was the single core<br>
> competency of anything that would call itself a build language. I<br>
> still tentatively assume that I must be missing something big there,<br>
> but I'm still a bit jaundiced towards other solutions. :-)<br>
> <br>
> Having said that, I should look at rake and scons; I agree that, all<br>
> else being equal, I'd like my build system to be integrated with a<br>
> pleasant scripting language, and make isn't that.<br>
> <br>
> John Roth mentioned rake and scons. Looking at the online<br>
> documentation, though, rake doesn't seem to be anywhere near ready for<br>
> prime time for C programming: I don't see any discussion of C issues,<br>
> and running "rake --help" doesn't mention anything about<br>
> parallelization, which would be an absolute show-stopper for me.<br>
> <br>
> scons looks more interesting, though: it looks rather more<br>
> fully-featured, the man page mentions parallelization, so it would<br>
> probably work. I don't know for sure if it will get automatic<br>
> dependency generation completely right, but it might, and even if it<br>
> doesn't, it might be close enough that its other virtues outweigh that<br>
> drawback. I would certainly play around with it, and (if the results<br>
> were good) it would be quite natural to use it if there was enough<br>
> Python knowledge on the project. (Or maybe even if there wasn't -<br>
> it's not like make gurus are falling off of every tree, after all.)<br>
<br>
I finally 'got around' to using Scons last year. Try it - you will<br>
never go back to 'make' again. The only drawback(s) that I've found so<br>
far are:<br>
<br>
Scons scripts are fully-fledged programs, so they can become overly<br>
complex (certainly my first attempts needed some refactoring, and my<br>
2nd and 3rd ones were improvements on the 1st).<br>
<br>
It is 'only' a build tool - you cannot trivially (at least I couldnt<br>
work it out) how to emulate 'make test' type behaviour where the tests<br>
are built and then run - I still used 'make' as a trivial controller.<br>
<br>
The documentation suggests a 'copy and build' approach, which works<br>
fine but can be confusing if you get a syntax error, as the 'compiled'<br>
source is a 'copy' (a writable copy at that) which should not of<br>
course be edited. [This style is not compulsory - a colleague used it<br>
by following the documentation]<br>
<br>
> <br>
> David Carlton<br>
> carlton@...<br>
><br>
<br>
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margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->
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