'Re: [et-mgmt-tools] ANNOUNCE: Augeas - a configuration API'

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List: et-mgmt-tools
Subject: Re: [et-mgmt-tools] ANNOUNCE: Augeas - a configuration API
From: Mike MacCana <mmaccana () au1 ! ibm ! com>
Date: 2008-04-23 4:58:59
Message-ID: 1208926739.21216.113.camel () mmaccana-laptop
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[Attachment #2 (multipart/alternative)]

On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 10:39 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 09:51:47AM +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
> > Admins don't like XML because vi isn't an XML editor. It's the
> > equivalent of Microsoft Word, treating presentation and content like
> > they're the same thing. 
> 
> Also, try converting a short example from
> your favorite programming language into XML to see how parsing is
> important.

We're not talking about programming language, we're talking about
configuration.

> > This is why I mentioned creating an editor earlier. There's no reason
> > why you need to see XML when you edit it. shouldn't be able to say 'jump
> > to next subsection, copy this object, paste it three times' in the same
> > way we do with lines and paragraphs in vi.
> 
> It's plainly ridiculous to create a whole new editor just for editing
> a particular form of file.  

You haven't stated why.

> This editor you're going to write is going
> to be better than vi & emacs? 

vi already does a terrible job of editing config files, as I've
previously mentioned. It's designed for words and paragraphs, mean mean
nothing in config files (unless you happen to practively edit your
config files so they can be edited neatly in vi, which itself is
ridiculous, although common).

A command line version of gconfig-editor with keybindings would already
crap all over presentation-based editors like vi.

A simple test:

'Delete 3 (shares|virtualhosts|domains'

In vi this data would either be treated as a series of lines, or
re-arranged, if the format allows, so that presentation matches content
and that these items are sorted into paragraphs. 

In vix, you'd type a key for delete, the number 3, and a third key to
tell it section (defined as an object of the level where the cursor is).

> Maybe after thousands of programmers have worked on it for > 20
years. 

I think you're too blinded by the last 20 years to see what's wrong with
presentation-based tools.

Cheers,

Mike

________________________________________________
Mike MacCana
Technical Specialist
Linux Services 

IBM Global Services
Level 14, 60 City Rd
Southgate Vic 3000 

Phone: +61-3-8656-2138
Fax: +61-3-8656-2423
Email: mmaccana@au1.ibm.com

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On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 10:39 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 09:51:47AM +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
&gt; Admins don't like XML because vi isn't an XML editor. It's the
&gt; equivalent of Microsoft Word, treating presentation and content like
&gt; they're the same thing.

Also, try converting a short example from
your favorite programming language into XML to see how parsing is
important.
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
We're not talking about programming language, we're talking about configuration.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
&gt; This is why I mentioned creating an editor earlier. There's no reason
&gt; why you need to see XML when you edit it. shouldn't be able to say 'jump
&gt; to next subsection, copy this object, paste it three times' in the same
&gt; way we do with lines and paragraphs in vi.

It's plainly ridiculous to create a whole new editor just for editing
a particular form of file.&nbsp; 
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
You haven't stated why.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
This editor you're going to write is going
to be better than vi &amp; emacs? 
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
vi already does a terrible job of editing config files, as I've previously mentioned. \
It's designed for words and paragraphs, mean mean nothing in config files (unless you \
happen to practively edit your config files so they can be edited neatly in vi, which \
itself is ridiculous, although common). 
A command line version of gconfig-editor with keybindings would already crap all over \
presentation-based editors like vi. 
A simple test: 
 
'Delete 3 (shares|virtualhosts|domains' 
 
In vi this data would either be treated as a series of lines, or re-arranged, if the \
format allows, so that presentation matches content and that these items are sorted \
into paragraphs. 
In vix, you'd type a key for delete, the number 3, and a third key to tell it section \
(defined as an object of the level where the cursor is). 
&gt; Maybe after thousands of programmers have worked on it for &gt; 20 years. 
 
I think you're too blinded by the last 20 years to see what's wrong with \
presentation-based tools. <TABLE CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="0" WIDTH="100%">
<TR>
<TD>
 
Cheers, 
 
Mike 
 
________________________________________________ 
Mike MacCana 
Technical Specialist 
Linux Services 
 
IBM Global Services 
Level 14, 60 City Rd 
Southgate Vic 3000 
 
Phone: +61-3-8656-2138 
Fax: +61-3-&#65279;8656-2423 
Email: <A HREF="mailto:mmaccana@au1.ibm.com">mmaccana@au1.ibm.com</A>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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