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List:       debian-user
Subject:    Re: To the Debian Project, IMHO
From:       "Simon Martin" <smartin () isys ! cl>
Date:       1999-09-20 11:14:40
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Hi Stephan,

No offence taken, with your mails, and don't get me wrong I quite like GUI interfaces \
for some jobs, command line for others. I just pick the tool I prefer for the job at \
hand. As far as I am concerned this thread is not about the GUI/OOUI/command line \
debate, but about the marketing focus, which can do a LOT of harm.

If I go to a hardware store and by a drill to put up some shelves at home I have to \
know how to use a drill, what kind of wall I am going to be drilling, the type of \
rawl plugs I will use, etc. It is actually quite a complicated business, and the \
thing is most of us accept this as normal. Why make using a computer different. To be \
alble to write with pen and paper I had to learn about ink, hand position, types of \
paper (don't use a biro on bond because it smears easily, etc.), all things that have \
nothing to do with the actual activity of writing a letter, just the mechanics of \
writing a letter. Today I rarely use pen and ink, I use computer and printer, but \
does that mean that I don't have to learn the mechanics of my writing materials? Am I \
born with a mouse attached to my left hand? Is there an instinctive power-on reflex? \
Do I come into this world knowing that opening seventeen instances of a spreadsheet \
program on a 486 with 16MB RAM is not a good thing to do?

All this is basic computer use skills. I HAVE to learn. If somebody tells me "here is \
your computer it just works" what do I expect? If someone says "here is your \
computer, it's fairly simple to use, but you'll have to learn a few things to keep it \
running smoothly" the effect is subtly different.

Unix has been famous for cryptic commands and general user unfriendliness it most \
circles. This is not necessarily good. When the usage message for a command is in \
excess of 5 pages (tar --help) it makes you wonder. I like an easy life, the same as \
the rest of us. I also like my challenges, it adds spice to life. If you present \
someone with a challenge they will usually rise to it (as long as it is within their \
sphere of competence). So let's make life easier, not more difficult. Let's tell the \
truth "Linux is like Unix. You need to know. We can help you, but your a big boy/girl \
now, and you have learn how to take care of yourself". Microsoft didn't and takes a \
bashing from the general users who complain that it doesn't live up to expectation, \
and it doesn't, you still have to know, despite what Microsoft or others may say.

    __ _   Debian GNU User
   / /(_)_ __  _   ___  __   Simon Martin
  / / | | '_ \| | | \ \/ /   Project Manager
 / /__| | | | | |_| |>  <    Isys
 \____/_|_| |_|\__,_/_/\_\   mailto: smartin@isys.cl

'I used to be schizophrenic, but now both of us are all right'


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephan Hachinger <Stephan.Hachinger@gmx.de>
> To: Simon Martin <smartin@isys.cl>
> Cc: Debian User <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
> Sent: 18 September 1999 21:05
> Subject: Re: To the Debian Project, IMHO
> 
> 
> > Hello!
> > 
> > Again some criticism about your opinions...
> > 
> > > Ok, ok, I sit corrected in several respects, but I am still adamant that
> > any attempt to paint Linux as an out of the box solution
> > > with no prior knowledge is a real danger to the on-going comercial success
> > of Linux. I worked in tech-support for Xerox for about 7
> > > years (Xerox used to sell Apple Mac, IBM PS/2 and Dell in Latin America),
> > and I would say that at least 70% of the problems we had
> > > we with users who not only did not know what they were doing (no problems
> > with that) but who did not WANT to know what they were
> > > doing. Microsoft has fixed the image of it's OS as "just use and ignore
> > it". Let's not fall into that trap.
> > > 
> > > Fixing the customers expectations is paramount for a successful install. If
> > you fix the expectations as "zero cost, zero learning"
> > > then you are NOT going to have a successful install. I am fairly competent
> > with Debian, but the last time I looked at RedHat, I did
> > > not want to do any real config changes until I had read the corresponding
> > man pages and other documents, and these are both Linux
> > > based!!!!
> > > 
> > > In short. If you use a tool you have to know it. If you want to use a tool
> > well you have to learn how it works. You don't get
> > > something for nothing and you definitely don't want to tell your customers
> > to expect the world for nothing.
> > 
> > OK, I know what you mean. I've been using Debian for a short time and
> > Windows for a quite long time now, and I worked together with many people on
> > PC projects. I also think in a way that there are two extremes concerning PC
> > users: There are some who want to dive deep into the secrets of the system,
> > and others only want to use it for doing their work. And I (I belong to the
> > first group) realized, whatever I worked on, that the second group of users
> > also got very good results out of their work.
> > 
> > Let's look on what the computer was invented for: Scientific calculations.
> > But people had to have very good knowledge and time to use it. And what the
> > computer can do now (at least sometimes): Help at work and calculate things
> > without needing much time for administration any more. Although I like to
> > administrate a system properly, IMHO it is very admirable that people can
> > now work with computers almost with zero administration. And it makes life
> > easier and makes the computer work for what it was created: Solving
> > problems.
> > 
> > So, IMHO, it is not good to think that people that can only work with GUI
> > interfaces and "dumb" OSes are stupid or worth less. I think it's very
> > understandable if someone wants to concentrate on his problems and not on
> > his systems.
> > 
> > Now, what do this thoughts end up to? I think there should be both kinds of
> > OSes: The "just use and..." ones and the ones which require proper
> > administration and can be tuned properly.
> > 
> > Why should we let MS control the market of the "just use and ignore it"
> > OSes? I there should be a Linux for EVERY person, and distributions like the
> > coming Corel-Linux, which are almost completely GUI-based, will improve the
> > success of Linux. But "Linuxes" also have to be tweakable.
> > 
> > I think that's why there are different distros: That different users can
> > reach different aims. Admins who want to tune it thorougly as well as home
> > users who want to use it without reading any manual, just to show to
> > extremes.
> > 
> > That's what Linux should be, I think. And if Debian should become easier to
> > install or something like that, there should be discussions about how the
> > future Debian can solve problems in a better way than last versions. But
> > there should not be a flame war about UNIX philosophy because it's no use
> > starting such a war. Time and users will tell where to go finally and which
> > philosophies are right. Why can't there be just peaceful coexistence between
> > different users and philosophies???
> > 
> > And: About the last paragraph: I think good software can be used without
> > knowing any manual. It has some help functions that quickly guide to the
> > required functions/params. You can see what command you must call. That's
> > good software. I want to dive into internals of OSes. But, personally, I
> > don't read manuals very often. And I succeeded with WIN and with Debian this
> > way. So that philosophy can't be that bad.
> > 
> > 
> > That was my opinion about this. I already have used WIN and LINUX, and DOS,
> > and the GEM UI, and DR DOS, and CALDERA DOS, and so on. Intolerance brings
> > no solution.
> > 
> > Did not want to offend anyone:).
> > 
> > 
> > Kind Regards,
> > 
> > Stephan Hachinger
> > 
> 
> 


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