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List:       cifs-protocol
Subject:    RE: [cifs-protocol] RE: 600634 - RE: salt used for various
From:       Hongwei Sun <hongweis () microsoft ! com>
Date:       2008-09-15 20:54:59
Message-ID: B8A3C6EE027AF84086DD3A049CF34A4A2BAA2F6DC9 () NA-EXMSG-C112 ! redmond ! corp ! microsoft ! com
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Andrew,



    We completed the document change regarding the key salt calculation for realm \
trust.  The change will appear in the  future release of 3.3.1 [MS-KILE] as follows.



                3.3 KDC Details



                3.3.1 Abstract Data Model



                KILE concatenates the following information to use as the key salt \
for realm trusts:

               Inbound trusts: <all upper case name of the remote realm> | "krbtgt" | \
<all upper case name of the local realm>

               Outbound trusts: <all upper case name of the local realm> | "krbtgt" | \
<all upper case name of the remote realm>



     Please let us know if you need further clarification on this subject.



Thanks

----------------------------------------------------------
Hongwei  Sun - Sr. Support Escalation Engineer
DSC Protocol  Team, Microsoft
hongweis@microsoft.com
Tel:  469-7757027 x 57027
-----------------------------------------------------------








-----Original Message-----
From: cifs-protocol-bounces+hongweis=microsoft.com@cifs.org \
[mailto:cifs-protocol-bounces+hongweis=microsoft.com@cifs.org] On Behalf Of Andrew \
                Bartlett
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:07 PM
To: Richard Guthrie
Cc: pfif@tridgell.net; cifs-protocol@samba.org
Subject: [cifs-protocol] RE: 600634 - RE: salt used for various principal types



On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 08:37 -0700, Richard Guthrie wrote:

> Andrew

> 

> Microsoft does use different methods of calculating the salt value

> used in encryption depending on the type account that is submitted to

> the salt calculation implementation.  For example, in the case of

> interdomain trust accounts, "krbtgt" is appended.  In the case of

> machine accounts, "host" is appended to the start of the salt value.

> 

> Implementers are free to implement a salt algorithm of their choice, without \
> affecting interoperability.



This would be true, but this applies only to objects of the type normally found under \
cn=users.  The salt to use for a password stored in \
trustAuthIncoming/trustAuthOutgoing must be specified in the docs.  It is not \
possible to negotiate an alternate salt for the AES or DES keys of interdomain trusts \
in Kerberos.



In any case, the salts as you describe should be included in a discussion of the \
Microsoft KDC.



Andrew Bartlett



--

Andrew Bartlett

http://samba.org/~abartlet/

Authentication Developer, Samba Team           http://samba.org

Samba Developer, Red Hat Inc.


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<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Andrew,<o:p></o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;We \
completed the document change regarding the key salt calculation for realm \
trust.&nbsp; The change will appear in the &nbsp;future release of 3.3.1 [MS-KILE] as \
follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; \
3.3 KDC Details&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; \
3.3.1 Abstract Data Model<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; \
KILE concatenates the following information to use as the key salt for realm \
trusts:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
 Inbound trusts: &lt;all upper case name of the remote realm&gt; |
&#8220;krbtgt&#8221; | &lt;all upper case name of the local \
realm&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
 &nbsp;Outbound trus</span><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>ts: &lt;all upper case \
name of the local realm&gt; | &quot;krbtgt&quot; | &lt;all upper case name of the \
remote realm&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp; \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please let us know if you need further clarification on this \
subject.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>


<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>


<p class=MsoNormal>Hongwei&nbsp; Sun - Sr. Support Escalation Engineer<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>DSC Protocol&nbsp; Team, Microsoft<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>hongweis@microsoft.com<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>Tel:&nbsp; 469-7757027 x 57027<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>


<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><span \
style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: cifs-protocol-bounces+hongweis=microsoft.com@cifs.org \
[mailto:cifs-protocol-bounces+hongweis=microsoft.com@cifs.org] On Behalf Of Andrew \
                Bartlett<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:07 PM<br>
To: Richard Guthrie<br>
Cc: pfif@tridgell.net; cifs-protocol@samba.org<br>
Subject: [cifs-protocol] RE: 600634 - RE: salt used for various principal \
types<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 08:37 -0700, Richard Guthrie \
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; Andrew<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; Microsoft does use different methods of calculating
the salt value <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; used in encryption depending on the type account
that is submitted to <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; the salt calculation implementation.&nbsp; For
example, in the case of <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; interdomain trust accounts, &quot;krbtgt&quot; is
appended.&nbsp; In the case of <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; machine accounts, &quot;host&quot; is appended to
the start of the salt value.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>&gt; Implementers are free to implement a salt algorithm
of their choice, without affecting interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>This would be true, but this applies only to objects of
the type normally found under cn=users.&nbsp; The salt to use for a password
stored in trustAuthIncoming/trustAuthOutgoing must be specified in the
docs.&nbsp; It is not possible to negotiate an alternate salt for the AES or
DES keys of interdomain trusts in Kerberos.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>In any case, the salts as you describe should be included
in a discussion of the Microsoft KDC.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>Andrew Bartlett<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>Andrew Bartlett<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>http://samba.org/~abartlet/<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>Authentication Developer, Samba
Team&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
http://samba.org<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoPlainText>Samba Developer, Red Hat Inc.<o:p></o:p></p>

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