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List: cassandra-dev
Subject: Re: Is simplenative in cassandra-stress still relevant?
From: Jonathan Ellis <jbellis () gmail ! com>
Date: 2023-06-09 22:24:14
Message-ID: CALdd-zj_yhwSJB31_H9QSmv8EUDhUzHSYtm-Hn=_StMN-U_8+g () mail ! gmail ! com
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I remember running into cases where the main user of an internal API that I
wanted to clean up was stress. It's a big chunk of code and the indirect
cost of keeping it around is not zero even if it's not being actively
improved.
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 10:43 AM Miklosovic, Stefan <
Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com> wrote:
> Well this is a completely different kind of discussion, Josh, let's
> explore it, shall we?
>
> I think that Cassandra should have some basic tool available to
> stress-test itself. Why not? I do not want to depend on some 3rd party
> tools even if they might be objectively better. I do not think that the
> current cassandra-stress is completely "useless". It is doing its job, more
> or less. If a user wants to have something more advanced she is welcome to
> use that but I do not like that we are trying to outsource the basic
> tooling outside of the project.
>
> As I see it, we just spice it up with some tests to be sure that it will
> not break without us knowing it and that's it. The fact that it is not
> actively contributed to does not necessarily make it eligible for deletion
> as a whole.
>
> Anyway, I am not calling the shots here, if a community decides it has to
> go so it will but I would be said to see it.
>
> Regards
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 15:15
> To: dev
> Subject: Re: Is simplenative in cassandra-stress still relevant?
>
> NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
>
>
>
> The main issue I see with maintaining the SimpleClient in cassandra-stress
> is the burden it puts on a user to understand the options available when
> connecting with -mode:
> How frequently do we expect users or devs to use the built-in
> cassandra-stress tool? Between tlp-stress and NoSQLBench, it's not clear to
> me that keeping cassandra-stress (which has been largely unmaintained for
> years as I understand it?) is the best option.
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 9:00 AM, Brad wrote:
> We all agree that we're not suggesting removing SimpleClient from
> Cassandra, just from its use in cassandra-stress.
>
> For debugging the native transport protocol, in addition to the standalone
> Java Driver, there are the python drivers and ODBC drivers which can be
> exercised with cqlsh and Intellij respectively. Are they not sufficient?
>
> The main issue I see with maintaining the SimpleClient in cassandra-stress
> is the burden it puts on a user to understand the options available when
> connecting with -mode:
>
> > cassandra-stress help -mode
>
>
> Usage: -mode native [unprepared] cql3 [compression=?] [port=?] [user=?]
> [password=?] [auth-provider=?] [maxPending=?] [connectionsPerHost=?]
> [protocolVersion=?]
>
> OR
>
> Usage: -mode simplenative [prepared] cql3 [port=?]
>
>
> ....
>
>
> A user trying to determine how to specify credentials for usr/pwd is
> presented with the option to use simplenative and prepared statements
> (which appear broken). It can lead down a rabbit hole of sparse
> documentation trying to figure out what the simplenative option is, and is
> better than cql3?
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 1:58 AM Miklosovic, Stefan <
> Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com<mailto:Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com>> wrote:
> Interesting point about the debuggability.
>
> Yes, I agree that SimpleClient (as class) should not be removed because we
> are using it in tests. I have already mentioned in my original e-mail that
> for this reason that class is not going anywhere and we still need to use
> it.
>
> The cost of keeping it there is not big, sure, but we clearly see that
> e.g. the usage of "prepared" is buggy and it does not work. That somehow
> indicates to me that it kind of atrophied and nobody seems to notice which
> further supports my case that it is actually not used too much if it went
> undetected for so long.
>
> Anyway, I think that we might just look at that bug with "prepared" and
> fix it and keep it all there. I do not see any tests which would test
> cassandra-stress command, similarly what we have for nodetool in JUnit. We
> could cover cassandra-stress similarly, just to be sure that its invocation
> on the most important commands does not fail over time.
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Brandon Williams <driftx@gmail.com<mailto:driftx@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 2:33
> To: dev@cassandra.apache.org<mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Is simplenative in cassandra-stress still relevant?
>
> NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 7:15 PM Brad <bschoeni@gmail.com<mailto:
> bschoeni@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > If you're performing stress testing, why would you not want to use the
> official driver? I've spoken to several people who all have said they've
> never used simplenative mode.
>
> I agree that it shouldn't be used normally, but I'm not sure we should
> remove it, because we can't remove it fully: SimpleClient is still
> used in many tests, and I think that should continue.
>
> If you suspect any kind of native proto or driver issue it may be
> useful to have another implementation easily accessible to aid in
> debugging the problem, and the maintenance cost of keeping it in
> stress is roughly zero in my opinion. We can make it clear that it's
> not recommended for use and is intended only as a debugging tool,
> though.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Brandon
>
>
--
Jonathan Ellis
co-founder, http://www.datastax.com
@spyced
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr">I remember running into cases where the main user of an internal API \
that I wanted to clean up was stress. It's a big chunk of code and the indirect \
cost of keeping it around is not zero even if it's not being actively \
improved.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On \
Wed, May 31, 2023 at 10:43 AM Miklosovic, Stefan <<a \
href="mailto:Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com">Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Well this is a \
completely different kind of discussion, Josh, let's explore it, shall we?<br> \
<br> I think that Cassandra should have some basic tool available to stress-test \
itself. Why not? I do not want to depend on some 3rd party tools even if they might \
be objectively better. I do not think that the current cassandra-stress is completely \
"useless". It is doing its job, more or less. If a user wants to have \
something more advanced she is welcome to use that but I do not like that we are \
trying to outsource the basic tooling outside of the project.<br> <br>
As I see it, we just spice it up with some tests to be sure that it will not break \
without us knowing it and that's it. The fact that it is not actively contributed \
to does not necessarily make it eligible for deletion as a whole.<br> <br>
Anyway, I am not calling the shots here, if a community decides it has to go so it \
will but I would be said to see it.<br> <br>
Regards<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: Josh McKenzie <<a href="mailto:jmckenzie@apache.org" \
target="_blank">jmckenzie@apache.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 15:15<br>
To: dev<br>
Subject: Re: Is simplenative in cassandra-stress still relevant?<br>
<br>
NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open \
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<br> <br>
<br>
<br>
The main issue I see with maintaining the SimpleClient in cassandra-stress is the \
burden it puts on a user to understand the options available when connecting with \
-mode:<br> How frequently do we expect users or devs to use the built-in \
cassandra-stress tool? Between tlp-stress and NoSQLBench, it's not clear to me \
that keeping cassandra-stress (which has been largely unmaintained for years as I \
understand it?) is the best option.<br> <br>
On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 9:00 AM, Brad wrote:<br>
We all agree that we're not suggesting removing SimpleClient from Cassandra, just \
from its use in cassandra-stress.<br> <br>
For debugging the native transport protocol, in addition to the standalone Java \
Driver, there are the python drivers and ODBC drivers which can be exercised with \
cqlsh and Intellij respectively. Are they not sufficient?<br> <br>
The main issue I see with maintaining the SimpleClient in cassandra-stress is the \
burden it puts on a user to understand the options available when connecting with \
-mode:<br> <br>
> cassandra-stress help -mode<br>
<br>
<br>
Usage: -mode native [unprepared] cql3 [compression=?] [port=?] [user=?] [password=?] \
[auth-provider=?] [maxPending=?] [connectionsPerHost=?] [protocolVersion=?]<br> <br>
OR<br>
<br>
Usage: -mode simplenative [prepared] cql3 [port=?]<br>
<br>
<br>
....<br>
<br>
<br>
A user trying to determine how to specify credentials for usr/pwd is presented with \
the option to use simplenative and prepared statements (which appear broken). It \
can lead down a rabbit hole of sparse documentation trying to figure out what the \
simplenative option is, and is better than cql3?<br> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 1:58 AM Miklosovic, Stefan <<a \
href="mailto:Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com" \
target="_blank">Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com</a><mailto:<a \
href="mailto:Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com" \
target="_blank">Stefan.Miklosovic@netapp.com</a>>> wrote:<br> Interesting point \
about the debuggability.<br> <br>
Yes, I agree that SimpleClient (as class) should not be removed because we are using \
it in tests. I have already mentioned in my original e-mail that for this reason that \
class is not going anywhere and we still need to use it.<br> <br>
The cost of keeping it there is not big, sure, but we clearly see that e.g. the usage \
of "prepared" is buggy and it does not work. That somehow indicates to me \
that it kind of atrophied and nobody seems to notice which further supports my case \
that it is actually not used too much if it went undetected for so long.<br> <br>
Anyway, I think that we might just look at that bug with "prepared" and fix \
it and keep it all there. I do not see any tests which would test cassandra-stress \
command, similarly what we have for nodetool in JUnit. We could cover \
cassandra-stress similarly, just to be sure that its invocation on the most important \
commands does not fail over time.<br> <br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: Brandon Williams <<a href="mailto:driftx@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">driftx@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:driftx@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">driftx@gmail.com</a>>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 2:33<br>
To: <a href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a><mailto:<a \
href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Is simplenative in cassandra-stress still relevant?<br>
<br>
NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open \
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<br> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 7:15 PM Brad <<a href="mailto:bschoeni@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">bschoeni@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:bschoeni@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">bschoeni@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br> > If you're \
performing stress testing, why would you not want to use the official driver? \
I've spoken to several people who all have said they've never used \
simplenative mode.<br> <br>
I agree that it shouldn't be used normally, but I'm not sure we should<br>
remove it, because we can't remove it fully: SimpleClient is still<br>
used in many tests, and I think that should continue.<br>
<br>
If you suspect any kind of native proto or driver issue it may be<br>
useful to have another implementation easily accessible to aid in<br>
debugging the problem, and the maintenance cost of keeping it in<br>
stress is roughly zero in my opinion. We can make it clear that it's<br>
not recommended for use and is intended only as a debugging tool,<br>
though.<br>
<br>
Kind Regards,<br>
Brandon<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- \
</span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jonathan \
Ellis<br>co-founder, <a href="http://www.datastax.com" \
target="_blank">http://www.datastax.com</a><br>@spyced<br></div></div></div>
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