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List: cassandra-dev
Subject: Re: [DISSCUSS] Access to JDK internals only after dev mailing list consensus?
From: Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova () gmail ! com>
Date: 2022-11-11 3:44:19
Message-ID: CAN+t3-hDXBuJGFYucY1g5AmddtBGLHSx3rfBuMx1dmCinEMHRw () mail ! gmail ! com
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Hi all,
Thank you for your feedback.
Just wanted to address Josh's two questions from the PR:
1) the dependency section was copy-paste from the agreed some time ago doc.
I am open to remove it, I assumed (maybe I was wrong) that it was missed
while transferring the doc to the web page.
2) we agreed not to start discussion threads and expect consensus on the
mailing list for opening jdk internals but a heads up on the mailing list
which can lead to discussion on the respective ticket.
Best regards,
Ekaterina
On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 8:28, Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org> wrote:
> Left a couple thoughts that are probably outside the scope of this work
> but fast-follows, and one nit on ordering (hit ML before documenting on
> JIRA vs. hit JIRA and then hit up ML). Otherwise, looks great!
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022, at 2:56 PM, Chen-Becker, Derek wrote:
>
> There was one very minor grammatical nit that I commented on, but I think
> that otherwise this is clear and well-written 😊
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *"dev@cassandra.apache.org" <dev@cassandra.apache.org>
> *Date: *Friday, November 4, 2022 at 3:51 PM
> *To: *"dev@cassandra.apache.org" <dev@cassandra.apache.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [EXTERNAL][DISSCUSS] Access to JDK internals only after
> dev mailing list consensus?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> 👋
>
>
>
> I finally got the chance to put down a proposal for a section at the end
> of the Cassandra Code Style document.
>
> Please help a fellow non-native speaker and definitely not a writer with
> some constructive criticism. :-)
>
> My proposal is in this commit -
>
>
> https://github.com/ekaterinadimitrova2/cassandra-website/commit/4a9edc7e88fd9fc2c6aa8a84290b75b02cac03bf
>
>
>
> I noticed the Dependencies section suggested in the past by Benedict was
> missing, even if we had a consensus around that. I added it back from the
> original doc.
>
>
>
> Best regards ,
>
> Ekaterina
>
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 at 13:34, Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Seems to me that people will be fine with heads up on the mailing list and
> details on tickets?
>
> Plus update of the Code Style to add a point around that, as suggested.
>
>
>
> I will leave this thread open a few more days and if there are no
> objections I will continue with documenting it.
>
>
>
> Have a great weekend everyone!
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 at 14:01, Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Git and jira , nothing specific
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 at 12:51, Derek Chen-Becker <derek@chen-becker.org>
> wrote:
>
> I think it's fine to state it explicitly rather than making it an
> assumption. Are we tracking any usage of internals in the codebase
> currently?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 6:30 AM Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> " A quick heads up to the dev list with the jira would be sufficient for
> anybody interested in discussing it further to comment on the jira."
>
>
>
> Agreed, I did't mean voting but more or less we have the lazy consensus or
> sharing concerns. Discussing them on a ticket should be enough but it needs
> to happen. Also, it shouldn't be more often than adding dependencies I
> guess.
>
>
>
> JDK team is only closing more and more internals and warning us about
> potential breakages. I want to prevent us from urgent fixing in patch
> releases and to ease the maintenance.
>
>
>
> I think ensuring that it is clearly documented why an exception is
> acceptable and what options were considered will be of benefit for
> maintenance. We can revise in time what has changed.
>
>
>
> " . Unless absolutely needed we should avoid accessing the internals.
> Folks on this project should understand why. We can make the dangers of
> this explicit in our contributor documentation. "
>
> +1
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 at 1:26, Dinesh Joshi <djoshi@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Personally not opposed to this. However, this is something that should be
> vetted closely by the reviewers. Unless absolutely needed we should avoid
> accessing the internals. Folks on this project should understand why. We
> can make the dangers of this explicit in our contributor documentation.
> However, requiring an entire dev list discussion around it seems
> unnecessary. A quick heads up to the dev list with the jira would be
> sufficient for anybody interested in discussing it further to comment on
> the jira. WDYT?
>
> Dinesh
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2022, at 8:31 AM, Ekaterina Dimitrova <e.dimitrova@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> Some time ago we added a note to the project Cassandra Code Style:
>
> "New dependencies should not be included without community consensus first
> being obtained via a [DISCUSS] thread on the dev@cassandra.apache.org
> mailing list"
>
>
>
> I would like to suggest also to add a point around accessing JDK
> internals. Any patch that suggests accessing internals and/or adding even
> more add-opens/add-exports to be approved prior commit on the mailing list.
>
>
>
> It seems to me the project can only benefit of this visibility. If
> something is accepted as an exception, we need to have the right
> understanding and visibility of why; in some cases maybe to see for
> alternatives, to have follow up tickets opened, ownership taken. In my
> opinion this will be very helpful for maintaining the codebase.
>
>
>
> If others agree with that I can add a sentence to the Code Style. Please
> let me know what you think.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ekaterina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> +---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> > Derek Chen-Becker |
>
> > GPG Key available at https://keybase.io/dchenbecker and |
>
> > https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=derek%40chen-becker.org |
>
> > Fngrprnt: EB8A 6480 F0A3 C8EB C1E7 7F42 AFC5 AFEE 96E4 6ACC |
>
> +---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
>
>
>
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div><div dir="auto">Hi all,</div><div dir="auto">Thank you for your \
feedback.</div><div dir="auto">Just wanted to address Josh's two questions from the \
PR:</div><div dir="auto">1) the dependency section was copy-paste from the agreed \
some time ago doc. I am open to remove it, I assumed (maybe I was wrong) that it was \
missed while transferring the doc to the web page.</div><div dir="auto">2) we agreed \
not to start discussion threads and expect consensus on the mailing list for opening \
jdk internals but a heads up on the mailing list which can lead to discussion on the \
respective ticket. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best \
regards,</div><div dir="auto">Ekaterina</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div \
dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 8:28, Josh McKenzie <<a \
href="mailto:jmckenzie@apache.org" target="_blank">jmckenzie@apache.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><u></u><div><div>Left \
a couple thoughts that are probably outside the scope of this work but fast-follows, \
and one nit on ordering (hit ML before documenting on JIRA vs. hit JIRA and then hit \
up ML). Otherwise, looks great!</div></div><div><div><br></div><div>On Mon, Nov 7, \
2022, at 2:56 PM, Chen-Becker, Derek wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" \
id="m_6319750399054192121m_-9201294513770221164qt"><div><p>There was one very minor \
grammatical nit that I commented on, but I think that otherwise this is clear and \
well-written <span><span style="font-family:"Apple Color \
Emoji"">😊</span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p>Cheers,<br></p><p> \
<br></p><p>Derek<br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><div style="border-style:solid none \
none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in \
0in;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223)"><p><b><span style="color:black"><span \
style="font-size:12pt">From: </span></span></b><span style="color:black"><span \
style="font-size:12pt">Ekaterina Dimitrova <<a href="mailto:e.dimitrova@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">e.dimitrova@gmail.com</a>><br> <b>Reply-To: </b>"<a \
href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a>" <<a \
href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Friday, November 4, \
2022 at 3:51 PM<br> <b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a>" <<a \
href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>RE: \
[EXTERNAL][DISSCUSS] Access to JDK internals only after dev mailing list \
consensus?</span></span></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><table border="0" \
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr \
style="height:15.25pt"><td width="1123" valign="top" \
style="width:842.35pt;border:1.5pt solid rgb(237,125,49);padding:0in \
5.4pt;height:15.25pt"><p><b><span \
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,153);color:black"><span \
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">CAUTION</span></span></b><span \
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,153);color:black">: This email originated from \
outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you can \
confirm the sender and know the content is \
safe.</span><br></p></td></tr></tbody></table></div><p> \
<br></p><div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:"Apple Color \
Emoji"">👋</span></span> <br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>I \
finally got the chance to put down a proposal for a section at the end of the \
Cassandra Code Style document. <br></p></div><div><p>Please help a fellow non-native \
speaker and definitely not a writer with some constructive criticism. :-) \
<br></p></div><div><p>My proposal is in this commit - <br></p><div><p><a \
href="https://github.com/ekaterinadimitrova2/cassandra-website/commit/4a9edc7e88fd9fc2c6aa8a84290b75b02cac03bf" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/ekaterinadimitrova2/cassandra-website/commit/4a9edc7e88fd9fc2c6aa8a84290b75b02cac03bf</a><br></p></div></div><div><p> \
<br></p></div><div><p>I noticed the Dependencies section suggested in the past by \
Benedict was missing, even if we had a consensus around that. I added it back from \
the original doc.<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>Best regards \
,<br></p></div><div><p>Ekaterina<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p><div><div><p>On Fri, \
9 Sep 2022 at 13:34, Ekaterina Dimitrova <<a href="mailto:e.dimitrova@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">e.dimitrova@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote \
style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p>Hi \
everyone,<br></p></div><div><p>Seems to me that people will be fine with heads up on \
the mailing list and details on tickets? <br></p></div><div><p>Plus update of the \
Code Style to add a point around that, as suggested. <br></p></div><div><p> \
<br></p></div><div><p>I will leave this thread open a few more days and if there are \
no objections I will continue with documenting it. <br></p></div><div><p> \
<br></p></div><div><p>Have a great weekend everyone! <br></p></div><div><p> \
<br></p><div><div><p>On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 at 14:01, Ekaterina Dimitrova <<a \
href="mailto:e.dimitrova@gmail.com" target="_blank">e.dimitrova@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none \
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p>Git \
and jira , nothing specific<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p><div><div><p>On Fri, 2 Sep \
2022 at 12:51, Derek Chen-Becker <<a href="mailto:derek@chen-becker.org" \
target="_blank">derek@chen-becker.org</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote \
style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p><span><span \
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span \
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I think it's fine to state it \
explicitly rather than making it an assumption. Are we tracking any usage of \
internals in the codebase \
currently?</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span \
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span \
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> \
</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span \
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span \
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Cheers,</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span \
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span \
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> \
</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span \
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span \
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Derek</span></span></span><br></p></div></div><p> \
<br></p><div><div><p>On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 6:30 AM Ekaterina Dimitrova <<a \
href="mailto:e.dimitrova@gmail.com" target="_blank">e.dimitrova@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none \
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div \
style="border:1pt none white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><div \
style="border:1pt none rgb(32,33,36);padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><div \
style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in"><p><span style="color:black"> \
</span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in"><p><span \
style="color:black"> </span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
windowtext;padding:0in"><p><span style="color:black">" A quick heads up to the dev \
list with the jira would be sufficient for anybody interested in discussing it \
further to comment on the jira."</span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
windowtext;padding:0in"><p><span style="color:black"> </span><br></p></div><div \
style="border:1pt none white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span \
style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in;color:black">Agreed, I did't mean \
voting but more or less we have the lazy consensus or sharing concerns. Discussing \
them on a ticket should be enough but it needs to happen. Also, it shouldn't be \
more often than adding dependencies I guess. </span><span \
style="color:white"></span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"> </span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span style="border:1pt none \
windowtext;padding:0in;color:black">JDK team is only closing more and more internals \
and warning us about potential breakages. I want to prevent us from urgent fixing in \
patch releases and to ease the maintenance. </span><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"></span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"> </span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span style="border:1pt none \
windowtext;padding:0in;color:black">I think ensuring that it is clearly documented \
why an exception is acceptable and what options were considered will be of benefit \
for maintenance. We can revise in time what has changed. </span><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"></span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"> </span><br></p></div><div style="border:1pt none \
white;padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span style="border:1pt none \
windowtext;padding:0in;color:black">"</span><span style="color:black"> . Unless \
absolutely needed we should avoid accessing the internals. Folks on this project \
should understand why. We can make the dangers of this explicit in our contributor \
documentation. "</span><span style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"></span><br></p></div><div \
style="border:1pt none \
rgb(32,33,36);padding:0in;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)"><p><span \
style="color:black">+1</span><span \
style="color:rgb(32,33,36)"></span><br></p></div></div></div><div><div><p> \
<br></p><div><div><p>On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 at 1:26, Dinesh Joshi <<a \
href="mailto:djoshi@apache.org" target="_blank">djoshi@apache.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none \
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p \
style="margin-bottom:12pt">Personally not opposed to this. However, this is something \
that should be vetted closely by the reviewers. Unless absolutely needed we should \
avoid accessing the internals. Folks on this project should understand why. We can \
make the dangers of this explicit in our contributor documentation. However, \
requiring an entire dev list discussion around it seems unnecessary. A quick heads up \
to the dev list with the jira would be sufficient for anybody interested in \
discussing it further to comment on the jira. \
WDYT?<br></p><div><p>Dinesh<br></p></div><div><p></p><div><br></div><p></p><blockquote \
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p style="margin-bottom:12pt">On Sep 1, \
2022, at 8:31 AM, Ekaterina Dimitrova <<a href="mailto:e.dimitrova@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">e.dimitrova@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></p></blockquote></div><blockquote \
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p>Hi \
everyone,<br></p></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote \
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>Some \
time ago we added a note to the project Cassandra Code \
Style:<br></p></div><div><p>"New dependencies should not be included without \
community consensus first being obtained via a [DISCUSS] thread on the <a \
href="mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org" target="_blank">dev@cassandra.apache.org</a> \
mailing list"<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>I would like to suggest \
also to add a point around accessing JDK internals. Any patch that suggests \
accessing internals and/or adding even more add-opens/add-exports to be approved \
prior commit on the mailing list. <br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>It \
seems to me the project can only benefit of this visibility. If something is accepted \
as an exception, we need to have the right understanding and visibility of why; in \
some cases maybe to see for alternatives, to have follow up tickets opened, \
ownership taken. In my opinion this will be very helpful for maintaining the \
codebase.<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>If others agree with that I \
can add a sentence to the Code Style. Please let me know what you think. \
<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p>Best \
regards,<br></p></div><div><p>Ekaterina<br></p></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p> \
<br></p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></d \
iv><p></p><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>--<br></div><p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p><span \
style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Courier \
New"">+---------------------------------------------------------------+</span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span \
style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">| Derek \
Chen-Becker \
|</span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:"Courier \
New"">| GPG Key available at </span></span><a \
href="https://keybase.io/dchenbecker" target="_blank"><span><span \
style="font-family:"Courier \
New"">https://keybase.io/dchenbecker</span></span></a><span><span \
style="font-family:"Courier New""> and \
|</span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span style="color:black"><span \
style="font-family:"Courier New"">| <a \
href="https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=derek%40chen-becker.org" \
style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank"> \
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=derek%40chen-becker.org</a> \
|</span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span style="color:black"><span \
style="font-family:"Courier New"">| Fngrprnt: EB8A 6480 F0A3 C8EB C1E7 \
7F42 AFC5 AFEE 96E4 6ACC |</span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span \
style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Courier \
New"">+---------------------------------------------------------------+</span></span><br></p></div><div><p> \
<br></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></di \
v></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div>
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