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List: apcupsd-users
Subject: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Battery Voltage Adjustments
From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm () mittelstaedt ! us>
Date: 2015-03-07 2:54:40
Message-ID: 54FA6870.5000705 () mittelstaedt ! us
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Hi Mark,
OK, well I did some digging on this and ran across this document:
http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/EALN-79CR5M/EALN-79CR5M_R1_EN.pdf?sdirect=true
Reading partway down the document comes across this:
"...The phase voltage in Auto mode is always 120Vac. The Output phase
difference between two phases tracks the input phase
difference..."
So, then getting back to your original question, it appears as though
the SURTD5000RMXLP3U and SURTD6000XLT, probably because they are both
electronic power supplies, use the input phase difference and voltage
to determine the output.
So, what APC support told you (and what I said) was wrong - both UPSes
should work just fine in either a 208v commercial system or a single
phase 240v system because the UPS auto-detects what power it's getting.
Ted
On 3/5/2015 3:50 AM, Mark Claussen wrote:
> Hope that you teach electrical power basics at some College.
>
> One thing that I can add is the following from literally hours of operation;
>
> A SURTD6000XLT that is directly feeding a SURT003 can be fed with the
> two 120 volt (180 degree out of phase) leads, and ground only (no
> neutral - the standard L6 30P). The SURT6000 is configured for both 240
> volt input and outlet parameters (highest of the limit settings are
> automatically set). The NEMA L6 30P outlet is plugged directly into the
> SURT003, with the outlet of the SURT003 (NEMA L15 30R) tied directly to
> the emergency power breaker panel. All emergency circuits operate as
> normal as far as voltages and apparent operation - including the A/C,
> ceiling fans, refrigerator, fluorescent lights, etc, etc. I also know
> that if you overload one of the 120 volt phases on the SURT003, that
> breaker will open - with no apparent affects on the SURT003.
>
> Anything you would recommend checking in this mode of operation?
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:03 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@mittelstaedt.us
> <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> The 2 legs of a 208v power are not 180 degrees out of phase.
> (180+180=360)
>
> they are 120 degrees out of phase. (120+120+120 = 360)
>
> Take a look at the following:
>
> http://www.epanorama.net/__documents/groundloop/mains___connectors.html
> <http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/mains_connectors.html>
>
>
> On 3/4/2015 5:48 PM, Mark Claussen wrote:
>
> Ted;
>
> As usual, you have a knack for making sense. My understanding
> of three
> Phase is in the abstract as the reality is that I'm dealing with
> center
> tapped neutral 240 volt (120 volt split phase) exclusively from my
> electrical coop.
>
>
> That's very common in rural areas. in urban areas they supply 440v to
> the building often in Delta configuration and then put a transformer
> in the building to drop it to 208v Wye with grounded neutral. The
> panel is a 3phase panel and they run 20A circuits off each leg of
> the wye.
>
> In rural areas the power needs are lower and the distances are
> greater so they are more concerned with saving money on distribution
> wiring costs
>
> Basically the designer is making a tradeoff to save wire costs. If your
> carrying high power then it saves more wire to go 3phase in a Delta
> config (no neutral) But if your carrying lower power over a long
> distance then it saves more wire to go single phase. there's a minimum
> wire size they have to use for strength and they play around with the
> voltages with transformers. As you know the higher the voltage the
> smaller the conductor is needed for the same amount of power.
>
> What has really confused me is this model UPS has the
>
> typical 4 prong input/output (like my generator) that carries
> the two
> 120 volt legs (180 degrees out of phase) and the neutral (plus
> ground of
> course).
>
>
> It is wired the same the only difference is if that outlet is
> supplying 208v power then the 2 legs are going to be 120 degrees out
> of phase not
> 180 degrees out of phase.
>
> I was (hoping) that this unit could input the 240 volt split
>
> phase, do it's magic (with battery backup) and spit out a
> balanced 240
> volts (based on the users of course) - 120 volts on two of the
> prongs,
> one neutral prong and the ground. I was (hoping) I could tie this
> directly to an emergency panel that would supply my 240 volt and 120
> volt users that are (typically) fairly well balanced by design - my
> rural home with a 240 volt air conditioner and 4 - 120 volt
> circuits.
> Wire size is very conservative for this off-grid case - including
> neutral so any unbalanced current should have no problem
> returning to
> the breaker panel???
>
>
> Look at the Symmetra line, or find an old Matrix, there's
> lots on Ebay, if cost is an issue.
>
> I understand (I think) that if this UPS does not work with two
> 120 volt
> phases (that are 180 degrees out of phase), then it won't do what I
> want.
>
>
> It's 120 degrees out of phase not 180. Now, can the UPS work off 240v
> 180 degrees power when it's expecting 208v 120 degrees out of phase
> power? Probably. Maybe. I don't know. If someone gave me a free one
> I might try it out. But I'd be more likely to sell it and buy a
> symmetra.
>
> But even if the UPS did work off it, I would assume the UPS is going to
> try to supply 208v power through the 4 prong outlet. I would assume
> that the 120v outlets would probably work OK.
>
> There's no way to know without finding out from APC support or putting
> an oscilloscope on the output.
>
> It seemed a miracle to me that it could replace both the
>
> SURTD5000 and the SURT003 (center tapped transformer) that I am
> using
> now. I'm speculating that this unit simply has a step down
> transformer
> to produce the 120 volt PDU outlets? But why the four prongs
> (NEMA L15-30)?
>
>
> No, the SURTD does NOT have a transformer! I have admined Matrixes
> I know how big they are and there is NOT space in the SURTD for the size
> transformer needed for a 5000va 240v UPS!
>
> My assumption is that the unit is completely electronic using the same
> principle that a PC switching power supply uses to boost or buck the
> voltage. The computer in the unit can produce whatever power in
> whatever voltage and phase that you want. But, since it's designed for
> use in a business that's running on 3phase I would assume the output
> is going to be consistent with what is in the wall feeding the UPS.
>
> The 4 prongs are 2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 safety ground. That 4 prong
> outlet is intended to plug into something like this:
>
> http://www.apc.com/products/__resource/include/techspec___index.cfm?base_sku=AP7823
> <http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AP7823>
>
> BTW, I have measured the voltages on each of the prongs of the
> output of
> the SURTD5000 (output configured to 240 volts) to ground and it
> certainly is NOT consistently 120 volts from each prong.
>
>
> Your big concern is going to be the HVAC system that's designed for
> 220/240v power because of it's electric motor, if you attempt to feed it
> 208v power.
>
> Here's a writeup I cribbed from elsewhere that explains it:
>
> The speed of the motor is based on the number of poles in the
> windings and the frequency of the input current. The motor is going
> to try to achieve the same speed and same output power as long as
> the frequency remains the same. That means if the voltage drops the
> current is going to go up but the same amount of work will be done,
> but at the expense of more heat in the motor windings which over
> time may damage the windings.
>
> Too severe of a drop in voltage will mean more slip and less torque
> in the motor output shaft and even more rise in current likely
> causing catastrophic failure in windings if overload protection does
> not open the circuit.
>
> Now if you supply the motor with higher than nameplate voltage you
> have the opposite to some degree. It is still going to try to run at
> the base speed according to input frequency, but with a high input
> voltage the current is going to be lower at the same output level.
> But you can not raise voltage too high or you will go to and beyond
> saturation of the magnetic coils and will start to have increased
> heating effects from that.
>
> So the basic answer to your question is yes the motor will run on
> 208 volts. It will draw more current when doing the same work than
> it draws at 220 volts. The real question is can the motor insulation
> take the increased heating it will encounter in the application?
>
> Ted
>
> Thanks again Ted,
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 6:25 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt
> <tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>
> <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>>> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I think you are mistaken somewhat. Split phase 240/120
> is NOT
> generally used to supply balanced power. In split phase the
> neutral is grounded (for safety) and the neutral carries
> current
> back to the transformer. Split phase is a cheap way to supply
> UNBALANCED power. Your split phase panel is UNBALANCED.
>
> Balanced power at 240 is only for very specialized
> applications
> where the loads never vary, and a neutral isn't typically used.
> Basically only used when you have transformers at each end in
> power distribution.
>
> As for the SURTD5000RMXLP3U that is showing here:
>
> http://www.apc.com/products/__resource/include/techspec___index.cfm?base_sku=__SURTD5000RMXLP3U
> <http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURTD5000RMXLP3U>
>
> That is a 208v UPS to 120v. This is intended to be fed
> by 2 legs of
> a balanced industrial 3-phase feed - AKA Wye connection - and
> distribute via several 120 PDU's or a 208v-to-120v PDU.
>
> I don't know if you have worked with 3phase before but
> essentially
> if you were to put a voltmeter between A-N you would get 120v,
> B-N you would get 120V and A-B you would get 208v. This is
> NOT split
> phase by any stretch of the imagination and you likely
> would burn up
> the UPS if you tried feeding a split phase panel as the neutral
> current would be excessive. Almost certainly you would
> violate a
> bunch of building codes.
>
> SOMETIMES it's possible to feed a 240v DEVICE if you
> connect ONLY
> the Earth, and the 2 poles to A-B or B-C or C-A of a 208v
> supply.
> But if it's a motor you will get a 14% reduction (at least)
> in voltage
> which will reduce power output. But you CANNOT connect to
> the neutral
> of the 208V supply if you do that. Since the
> SURTD5000RMXLP3U is
> an online UPS and uses a switching supply I believe you can
> boost
> the output to 240 single-phase from 208v Wye, but you would
> need to
> confirm this.
>
> To feed a 240 split phase panel properly you need to go
> to the
> Symmetra line. Something like a SYH4K6RMT-P1 I would guess.
>
> Note: this is not to be construed as certified
> electrical advice.
> Please confirm this with APC and your local electician as
> local codes
> may apply.
>
> Ted
>
> On 3/4/2015 2:39 PM, Mark Claussen wrote:
> > Anyone familiar with theAPC SURTD5000RMXLP3U? This unit has
> both 4
> > prong /240 volt input and output (NEMA L14-30) and several
> NEMA L5-20/
> > 120 volt outlets. Does this indicate this unit can produce
> 240 volt
> > split phase with balanced 120 volt outputs? APC (Schneider)
> indicates
> > the phases are not balanced on the NEMA L14-30R, but I then
> wonder how
> > can it produce 120 volt for the NEMA L5 outlets?
> >
> > Any help is appreciated as I'd like to use this directly to
> feed an
> > existing 240 volt split phase panel.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Mark Claussen
> <marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>
> <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>>
> > <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>
> <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >
> > With the correct serial cable, I was able, thru
> hyperterminal to
> > reset the username and password and use the "console" to
> reconfigure
> > the output voltage to 240 V. I then attempted to use the
> Smart
> > Protocol to access the "prog" funtions. I did receive
> the "SM"
> > acknowledgement to the "Y", but no response to any keystrokes
> > following ("1", wait "1") - was not able to obtain the "prog"
> > response. Has anyone been successful using Smart
> Protocol on the
> > SURT models 5000/6000 (post 2005) in the "prog" mode?
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Mark Claussen
> <marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>
> <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>>
> > <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>
> <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com <mailto:marktm200@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks - I had some information on the PROG function
> of the
> > Smart Protocol, but not to this level of detail. If I'm
> > successful on the SURT 6000, I will post the results.
> > Mark
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt
> > <tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>
> <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>>
> <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>
> <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us <mailto:tedm@mittelstaedt.us>>>__>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > You might be able to do this - see this post:
> >
> >
> http://osdir.com/ml/__monitoring.nut.user/2007-01/__msg00120.html \
> <http://osdir.com/ml/monitoring.nut.user/2007-01/msg00120.html>
> >
> > and this one:
> >
> >
> http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/__apc_smartups_battery_float___voltage
> <http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_smartups_battery_float_voltage>
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > On 11/11/2014 6:28 AM, Mark Claussen wrote:
> > > I would like to change the battery charge voltage on my
> > APC Smart UPS.
> > > The ultimate goal is to "experiment" with LiFePO4 battery
> > technology
> > > that would require a "bulk/equalization" charge voltage
> > of around 230
> > > volts - depending upon the number of "cells" is use. The
> > current charge
> > > voltage on my unit is consistently 217 volts. Is it
> > possible to do
> > > this? Are there any other programmable parameters for
> > the battery
> > > charging? I have purchased a 940-0024c cable and will
> > use hyperterminal
> > > to do this. I have found a list of commands for "Smart
> > Protocol" and
> > > see that "B" indicates the actual battery voltage (the
> > values must be
> > > for a nominal 24 volt UPS). Is this a parameter that can
> > be adjusted
> > > up/down and if so, how much?
> > > Also, does anyone have an idea of the available wattage
> > that the
> > > charging circuit can supply during the bulk charging stage?
> > >
> > > This is the URL with the table of Smart Protocol
> > signalling protocol.
> > >
> http://www.networkupstools.__org/ups-protocols/apcsmart.__html#R
> <http://www.networkupstools.org/ups-protocols/apcsmart.html#R>
> > >
> > > UPS - SURT6000XL147
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance for any information,
> > > Mark Claussen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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