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List:       apache-httpd-users
Subject:    Re: [users@httpd] Apache child process consuming massive RAM
From:       "Leif W" <warp-9.9 () usa ! net>
Date:       2004-04-30 4:02:14
Message-ID: 00bc01c42e67$ebe466e0$6601a8c0 () enterprise
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dishko Georgiev" <dishkols@rozabg.com>
To: <users@httpd.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Apache child process consuming massive RAM


> Hi,
>
> I just solved this problem! :)
>
> Just downgraded from apache2 to apache1 with php4.3.6 and now all is
ok.
> Problem is in apache, not php coz i dont have such a problem with
> apache1.3.26!
>
> Pls Apache team look whats the problem with new apache2!

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this sounded ignorant.  This didn't solve
anything for the Apache group.  It may have solved your personal problem
with a project deadline or with angry customers or a sense that you
completed something and can rest; I can appreciate it in that sense.
But you still didn't even clearly define the problem.  You didn't
isolate what specific portions of which module code was causing
problems.  You didn't isolate what scripts you are running that cause
these problems for you.  You didn't generalize the problem and provide
scripts that Apache developers could use to further work on the problem.
You didn't investigate (or at least didn't post the results of such
research) any of your module's configurations which may have needed
tweaking to optimize theirperformance under Apache2.  You didn't mention
any code in your applications which maybe caused problems with the
language's Apache2 modules?  If there's problems with a language module
like PHP, then the problem belongs to the PHP group, and maybe could be
worked on in conjunction with the Apache group.

Also, consider that as with any software, the source code base changes
and often grows significantly between major releases, and as a result
binary files are simply going to be a little bigger and require a
littlemore processes.  Usually though, hardware advances justas fast, if
not a little bit faster than software, so most people always have plenty
of resources.  What type of machine were you running Apache on?  How
much physical RAM and virtual memory?  My desktop has 1GB physical RAM,
that's average.  A server usually has twice that.  But my personal
Apache server has only 512MB RAM, and it's such low traffic, and I have
it configured with minimal start and free servers, and even if I hit it
with ab on several php or perl scripts, unused child servers die off
fairly quick and I always have plenty of RAM... and I have almost all
modules compiled as shared objects, and each request uses several
modules (mod_vhost_alias, mod_rewrite, mod_ssl, mod_access, mod_auth,
mod_log_config, mod_logio, [mod_suexec, mod_cgi, mod_php4 or
mod_autoindex, mod_dir]) -- about 1/3 or nearly 1/2 of my modules!

In short, you haven't been able to systematically or definitively prove
either way wether or not the problems you experienced were problems with
specific parts of specific software (group problems, and which group,
and what the problem was), or if it was just a set of personal problems,
version-specific misconfigurations, or system anaomalies (bad
libs/modules: you DID recompile all your Perl,PHP, and Python
modulesfrom source specifically for use with Apache2 right, and not just
copy the 1.3 to the 2.0 modules dir?), which are inherent when upgrading
any sufficiently complex set of interacting software applications
(Apache, Python, PHP, Perl, all of which can be pretty hairy by
themselves) from one major version to another.  So before you go off
thinking the problem is solved, think again.  Not only have you
downgraded to a non-current version, as 1.3.29 is newer, you haven't
even found the initial problem, and haven't helped anyone else figure it
out either, and reproduce it on their system.  There are an overwhelming
majority of people who seem to have Apache 2 installed with PHP and Perl
and don't have a major memory problem.  But then again if you're running
this on a 96MB machine as opposed to a 1 or 2GB machine, and you have
sufficient traffic, you're going to have problems.  :D

Leif

> Dishko Georgiev
> System Administrator
> Terasyst Ltd., Bulgaria
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joshua Slive" <joshua@slive.ca>
> To: <users@httpd.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 7:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [users@httpd] Apache child process consuming massive RAM
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Harrell, Roger wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > >Hmmm... You originally said the processes where using 20MB each.
Are
> you
> > > >saying that even after all third-party modules are gone, you
still have
> > > >around 13MB per process?  That is way too big.
> > > >
> > > >I'm not a php expert, but you should take a look at what modules
you
> have
> > > >compiled into php and see if there are some you don't need.
> > >
> > > With the code modules gone (php, perl, python) the httpd childs
are
> about 5
> > > MB each.
> >
> > That is a reasonable size for a fairly complete apache.  Note that
some
> > portion of that memory is probably shared between processes, so the
total
> > memory is probably not (number of processes)*5MB.  As you seem to
realize,
> > you can go smaller by removing modules.
> >
> > There's a good chance you don't need any of these modules; but you
should
> > double-check.
> >
> > > LoadModule mime_magic_module modules/mod_mime_magic.so
> > > LoadModule cern_meta_module modules/mod_cern_meta.so
> > > LoadModule usertrack_module modules/mod_usertrack.so
> > > LoadModule unique_id_module modules/mod_unique_id.so
> > > LoadModule dav_module modules/mod_dav.so
> > > LoadModule asis_module modules/mod_asis.so
> > > LoadModule dav_fs_module modules/mod_dav_fs.so
> > > LoadModule vhost_alias_module modules/mod_vhost_alias.so
> > > LoadModule imap_module modules/mod_imap.so
> >
> > >
> > > and the perl and php modules.
> > >
> > > With this each child is around 10MB. Still way to big.
> >
> > 10MB doesn't sound completely unreasonable for a server with both
mod_perl
> > and mod_php.  As I mentioned, you can probably cut down on that
somewhat
> > by trimming mod_perl and mod_php to the essentials, but I don't know
> > details on how to do that.  Ask on a more specific mailing list.
> >
> > Joshua.



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